A and B rolls

[FJohnSharp]

I think I mentioned this once in another thread, but I think it deserves it's own thread.


I was having trouble with the A and B rolls, specifically making them smooth and up to even a moderate speed. No matteer how much I played them, tI didn't see progress. I assumed it was maybe you can't teach an old dog...

Anyway, I started learning Munster Buttermilk. In the B part, measure two has a B roll followed by a B that needs to be cut, then measure three has an A roll followed by a cut A. Essentially you're doing a note-cut-note-tap-note-cut-note. One day I decided I was going to slog through those measures no matter how slow I had to go, and I did them over and over and over, as slow as necessary to play them right, which was really slow at first.

What I found was, that while I didn't gain appreciably in playing those figures, after a few days I was playing regular A and B rolls better. Noticably better. I think making my fingers do something harder then letting do something easier seemed to work for me. Like using a heavy bat in the on-deck circle.

[picardy third]

What I found was, that while I didn't gain appreciably in playing those figures, after a few days I was playing regular A and B rolls better. Noticably better. I think making my fingers do something harder then letting do something easier seemed to work for me. Like using a heavy bat in the on-deck circle.

I totally agree. I'm not the speed expert, but when I'm not practicing tunes, instead of just noodling, I have all sorts of scales and exercises that I play just to keep my fingers quick and nimble. My view has been that I should be able to play an A roll just as fast as an F# roll or any other roll.

If we keep it up, maybe we'll play like Brian Finnegan!

nate

[burnsbyrne]

John,
As you can imagine, I have been practicing that tune too and had trouble at the same spot. What I did was to just play the A and B rolls over and over again, very slowly, paying attention to the correct temporal value of the notes. It has taken a long time but I now usually hit those rolls well if I don't try to play too fast. Another tune with those rolls is Banks of Loch Gowna which is also a very nice jig. Ah, the woes of aging. When we're young we rebel against authority and when we're old our bodies rebel against us.
Mike

[Wombat]

While there's a place, an important one, for playing things slowly, there's also a place for playing things that are technically beyond you in just the way described. Of course, I don't just mean practice things you can't yet play. All learning involves that. What I mean is practice things a couple of degrees of difficulty harder than what you can comfortably play.

I think when we play tunes we are having trouble with on low D or G and tehn go back to playing them on high D we are doing something like this. it can really help dexterity and rhythm. Also there's a limited role for playing faster than you can comfortably manage occasionally, but I suspect a lot of people will disagree about that. This sort of exercise should only be indulged in for relatively brief periods I think.

[FJohnSharp]

. Also there's a limited role for playing faster than you can comfortably manage occasionally, but I suspect a lot of people will disagree about that. This sort of exercise should only be indulged in for relatively brief periods I think.

I think that playing faster that you're capable of playing well leads to bad habits.

[PhilO]

The A and B rolls have always been harder for me because they're done with the left hand and I'm a righty. You may want to try sort of bouncing your whole wrist rather than individual fingers (like a drum stick off a drum).

Philo

[picardy third]

I think when we play tunes we are having trouble with on low D or G and tehn go back to playing them on high D we are doing something like this. it can really help dexterity and rhythm.

In contrast to this, I will rehearse on a low whistle for more of a workout. Then when performed, on a higher whistle, it seems to be that much easier!

But I agree. If I am getting frustrated on a low whistle, it is good for me to go back to a higher one just to keep from getting too frustrated.

[chas]

. Also there's a limited role for playing faster than you can comfortably manage occasionally, but I suspect a lot of people will disagree about that. This sort of exercise should only be indulged in for relatively brief periods I think.

I think that playing faster that you're capable of playing well leads to bad habits.

I think we've been through this before, and there are valid points on both sides. Wombat isn't saying to always play faster than you can cleanly, but that in order to build up speed and accuracy, both need to be practiced.

[FJohnSharp]

I was agreeing and reinforcing wombat's statement, not contradicting, as it seems to appear.

I'll write clearer-er in the future.

[Wombat]

. Also there's a limited role for playing faster than you can comfortably manage occasionally, but I suspect a lot of people will disagree about that. This sort of exercise should only be indulged in for relatively brief periods I think.

I think that playing faster that you're capable of playing well leads to bad habits.

I think we've been through this before, and there are valid points on both sides. Wombat isn't saying to always play faster than you can cleanly, but that in order to build up speed and accuracy, both need to be practiced.

Right Chas. I think that to get the rhythm of jigs and reels you need to be able to play fragments of them at somewhere near geezer speed if not at session speed. Even if you can only get isolated phrases sounding right and mistake free you know what to aim for and can go back to playing them slowly.

I defy anyone to learn to play Chuck Berry style rock guitar by learning and practising his licks slowly. You'll never get the right rhythm that way because you won't feel it as a rock rhythm. Once you can play them acceptably at or near full speed you can then slow them down to finesse them, then speed them back up again. It's a backwards and forwards process.

ITM isn't exactly the same but neither is it completely different.

[Wombat]

I think when we play tunes we are having trouble with on low D or G and tehn go back to playing them on high D we are doing something like this. it can really help dexterity and rhythm.

In contrast to this, I will rehearse on a low whistle for more of a workout. Then when performed, on a higher whistle, it seems to be that much easier!

But I agree. If I am getting frustrated on a low whistle, it is good for me to go back to a higher one just to keep from getting too frustrated.

Actually my phrasing wasn't clear. I meant to include what you just said as well, PT.

[Will O'B]

I defy anyone to learn to play Chuck Berry style rock guitar by learning and practising his licks slowly. You'll never get the right rhythm that way because you won't feel it as a rock rhythm. Once you can play them acceptably at or near full speed you can then slow them down to finesse them, then speed them back up again. It's a backwards and forwards process.

ITM isn't exactly the same but neither is it completely different.

Makes good sense.

Will O'Ban

[Bloomfield]

I disagree with Wombat, but I know nothing about guitar licks. But nothing.

Take a book out of how Highland pipers learn their insanely complicated and precise ornamentation: They slow down to super sloooooooow motion and exaggerate the finger movements (moving the fingers far off the chanter).

On the whistle, slow down (think slow motion, not slow musical speed), then move the fingers in a deliberate and exaggerated way. Most importantly keep in time. That is cruicial. Count eight notes if it helps. Get the fingers used to the clean and rhythmical succession of the movements you need for your roll. You will feel when it settles into your fingers (and it won't take that long). At that point you can speed up a little, but resist the temptation to speed up too much. Discipline yourself not to play at any speed where you cannot keep the rhythm clean and steady.

Im my experience it takes about a year of 10 min a day to get rolls under your belt. After that the A and the B rolls will continue to be the iffy ones. As a professional ITM flute player said to me once when I complained about having to work on my A rolls: "you'll be doing it for the rest of your life; we all have to."

[FJohnSharp]

As a professional ITM flute player said to me once when I complained about having to work on my A rolls: "you'll be doing it for the rest of your life; we all have to."

I like this. It took me a long time to get over the fact that I couldn't learn to crank out rolls and tricky rhythms in a few months. I'm at peace with it (which, I think, takes a lot of the pressure off).

[Jennie]

"you'll be doing it for the rest of your life; we all have to."

I like this. It took me a long time to get over the fact that I couldn't learn to crank out rolls and tricky rhythms in a few months. I'm at peace with it (which, I think, takes a lot of the pressure off).[/quote]


Peace. A good practice. Take out the frustration, make it beautiful even if I never get up to tempo. I think this is the essential to way more than playing A and B rolls.

And it's comforting to know that these are hard for more than just me.

Jennie