Troy Donockley's new album

[Joseph E. Smith]

One thing that ITM needs to develope is the ability to look at itself, criticise itself (in an informed way... there is plenty of industry based sh*t going on) and generally accept itself in all it's complexity as modes of expression good and not-so-good. I am all for the small but sensible school of thought that suggests introducing sub categories into ITM as they do in other musics (e.g. traditional folk instrumental, Irish fusion, Irish world beat etc...). It seems that people are losing track of what it actually is that they are listening to these days, it all gets lumped in together despite profound differences in content, approach and sensibilities present. The problem being there that some artists involved think that they and their approach have exclusive rights to Irish music and the direction that it MUST take. The desire for exclusive ownership and control of whatever it is that we have will always be a major stumbling block untill a level of acceptance and real self confidence and artistic self determination is built up.

This is one of the better descriptions of the difference between ITM and other forms of IM (especially piping) that I have read on this forum to date. It is easy for the non-intiated to lose, or never gain sight of these distinctions, as I often tend to do.

[Harry]

Chilled R U

Completely, it is a welcome bi-product of the pursuit of open mindedness (and open ear-edness).

Regards,

Harry.

[noshinchan]

Seems like part of what is happening is that an instrument that existed only in one tiny corner of the world playing a very distinct and traditional type of music has left Ireland. Imagine if purists insisted that the guitar be reserved only for classical compositions of the 19th century. The Irish pipes have too much color and flavor for them to remain the property of ITM purists. I think they can be compared in their "virtuosic" potential to the oboe, the violin, and the electric guitar in their ability to provoke great depths of emotion/passion, and the secret is out! To the disgust of some and the delight of many thousands more, expect the pipes to appear in symphonies, soundtracks, jazz clubs... I'd love to hear a symphony for chorale, orchestra and pipes. Maybe Brendan McKinney with a full album instead of the single cut on the Chicago Irish music CD!!

As for ITM, I expect it will be the standard to which the best pipers are trained, much as classical music is often the foundation for the best guitarists, keyboardists, etc. The pipes sound like the pipes in large part because of the ornamentation, best learned in ITM. But no great instrument like the pipes will go unchanged.

Tennessee Bob

[noshinchan]

Seems like part of what is happening is that an instrument that existed only in one tiny corner of the world playing a very distinct and traditional type of music has left Ireland. Imagine if purists insisted that the guitar be reserved only for classical compositions of the 19th century. The Irish pipes have too much color and flavor for them to remain the property of ITM purists. I think they can be compared in their "virtuosic" potential to the oboe, the violin, and the electric guitar in their ability to provoke great depths of emotion/passion, and the secret is out! To the disgust of some and the delight of many thousands more, expect the pipes to appear in symphonies, soundtracks, jazz clubs... I'd love to hear a symphony for chorale, orchestra and pipes. Maybe Brendan McKinney with a full album instead of the single cut on the Chicago Irish music CD!!

As for ITM, I expect it will be the standard to which the best pipers are trained, much as classical music is often the foundation for the best guitarists, keyboardists, etc. The pipes sound like the pipes in large part because of the ornamentation, best learned in ITM. But no great instrument like the pipes will go unchanged.

Tennessee Bob

[Harry]

Seems like part of what is happening is that an instrument that existed only in one tiny corner of the world playing a very distinct and traditional type of music has left Ireland. Imagine if purists insisted that the guitar be reserved only for classical compositions of the 19th century...
Tennessee Bob

The UPs are universely recognised as having left here some time ago. I don't think that even the piping idiot who would admit to espousing the rediculously unrealistic title 'purist' would deny the existence of one Patrick J. Touhey, one Tom Busby, one Mike Carney etc...

I don't percieve any signifigant geographical discrimination. The evident differences are a matter of sensibilities and tastes (or lack of tastes depending on your politics) which exist unhibited across international boundries. As I said, the conflict arises when the label attached to whatever is trying to be sold says only "Irish piping" or only 'Irish traditional Music" or whatever. This is where things start to become murky for all concerned.

It seems that the pipes have very much left Ireland, but that an Irish theme label is quite the selling point for the time being. Or maybe the pipes are demanding to be surgically removed by those who are 'in the know'?

Regards,

Harry.

[Brian Lee]

And old ennis recordings will never exceed the musical coloring and soundscape or whatever you want to call it in Spillane-esqe recordings.

You better go wash your ears and listen again!

Ya know Peter, you're right. EVERY time I hear an old Ennis (or any other older piping recording) recording, I immediately think of Riverdance, the Afro-Celt Soundsystem, and all of Spillane's recordings as being exactly the same! Re-read what was said. It's not the level of musicianship, but rather the synth washes and such that was being compared.

[brianc]

Well, I listened to the music at the link to see what all the fuss was about.

Yes, it's heavy on the synth, heavy on the vibrato and reverb, etc.

So what?

If you don't like it, there's a little "X" in the upper right hand corner of the screen - click it and the source of your consternation will magically (and immediately) disappear.

As for the "pure drop" folks here, an event occured a few years' back in Denver, Colorado that might give you pause to reflect on your "it's not 'true' IR Trad until I say so" attitudes:

Paddy Keenan was playing before a small (very small) audience in Denver... there couldn't have been 50 people in the house. The sad fact is, far too few people even know who he is, and yet I daresay that most folks would speak of his contributions to the art in revered tones.

On this particular night, Paddy was playing away, and the tunes were quite enjoyable. At one point, he was telling the story of an air he was about to play. Then, just prior to beginning, he instructed the sound man to 'turn up the reverb, please'. Then he began to fine-tune his drones... and then requested, "turn it up more, please... more... just turn it all the way up".

So - do you 'pure droppers' think any less of Paddy because he used a full shot of reverb?

As I said - if you don't like what you're hearing, turn it off.

[brianc]

The UPs are universely recognised as having left here some time ago. I don't think that even the piping idiot who would admit to espousing the rediculously unrealistic title 'purist' would deny the existence of one Patrick J. Touhey, one Tom Busby, one Mike Carney etc...
It seems that the pipes have very much left Ireland, but that an Irish theme label is quite the selling point for the time being. Or maybe the pipes are demanding to be surgically removed by those who are 'in the know'?

Regards,

Harry.

I think it was in 'An Piobaire' recently where there was an article which referenced a review of Touhey's piping ... and in the article the reviewer basically crucified Patsy for not playing in pure drop form.

As for me, one of my favorite pipers to listen to is Liam O'Flynn, a man who learned from two of the 'kings' of Irish pipering. There are, I believe, a fair number of pipers / traditionalists who don't care for Liam's piping style. The fact that he has recorded with *gasp!* orchestras! leaves them cold for some reason. To me, it simply points out the wide and practical use of the instrument itself. Why pigeon-hole it into one very small category that is typically requested only on St. Patrick's day or the like?

PS: I enjoyed the music that was linked - thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[djm]

Perhaps a warning should be given when someone chooses to introduce a new album on this forum to describe what it is that is being announced, e.g. if maw had said something like, "Oh, boy! Troy Donockley has just released a new CD full of very emotional New Age sounds on UPs that I love," then eveyone would be able to determine for themselves whether they wanted to look any further. Similarly, one could announce a new CD as C&W with UPs, HM with UPs, Pure Drop with UPs, Yodelling with UPs, etc.

There is nowhere on this site that specifies that only ITM is to be discussed, so it would probably help us to communicate with each other more equitably by telling readers up front what sort of music you are trying to introduce them to.

djm

[Harry]

I think it was in 'An Piobaire' recently where there was an article which referenced a review of Touhey's piping ... and in the article the reviewer basically crucified Patsy for not playing in pure drop form.

I would be interested in reading that article (which I am suprised to have no recollection of) to compare it's contents with your colourful outline of it. Even if that was the case it in no way represents any general or even slight minority feeling in NPU or the pages of An Piobaire I can assure you.

Not that this speaks for all of it's members or comtributors, but it might be worth remebering that NPU published a groundbreaking analysis of Touhey's music and a tape of his (at the time) very hard to get recordings. This study of his playing style represents the most in-depth study of a piper's style to date.

The editior of An Piobaire is not in the idiotic business of condemning things simply because he does not find them 'pure drop' (which I take to mean in a traditional mode, with style, and the required amount of personal involvement with the material etc. The term 'pure drop' is of course relative to one's own idea of what that all is (and/or isn't), which is why it is often used erroniously in my opinion).

There are a fair number of pipers/traditionalists who don't care for two of the pipers/traditionalists that Liam O'Flynn learned from (he actually learned from more than two). And he wasn't the first piper by any means to play outside what is now labelled 'tradition' by a long stretch of decades.

So, if we are not to categorise ITM should we consider it all 'pure drop' to use your own, pigeon hole term?

Regards,

Harry.

[brianc]

Even if that was the case it in no way represents any general or even slight minority feeling in NPU or the pages of An Piobaire I can assure you.

The editior of An Piobaire is not in the idiotic business of condemning things simply because he does not find them 'pure drop' (which I take to mean in a traditional mode, with style, and the required amount of personal involvement with the material etc. The term 'pure drop' is of course relative to one's own idea of what that all is (and/or isn't), which is why it is often used erroniously in my opinion).

Allow me to clarify here.... the article in 'An Piobaire' was not a review by anyone still living... rather, 'An Piobaire' reprinted a review from 19xx, (don't recall the year, but it seems to me that it was in the late 1800s / early 1900s) written by a man who clearly did not care for Touhey's piping style.

It was most assuredly NOT a review by NPU about Touhey's piping.

I'm fairly certain that I read it in 'An Piobaire' within the past 6 to 9 months, so that would mean the last 3 issues or so. I'll dig through my collection when I return home and see what I can find. (Oddly enough, I edited my post about where I'd read that article... at first I'd written that the article had been posted to this forum, but thought better of that and changed it to 'An Piobaire').

Finally, I reject the notion that I have attempted to pigeon-hole Irish Trad music. It's pretty evident to me that there are a fair number of purists out there who have taken it upon themselves to draw the boundary lines of 'what is ITM and what is not'. To the contrary, I enjoy the attempts at blurring the lines of the various music classifications that some talented folks have made. One exception to this was some of the music the Chieftains did on "The Old Plank Road" , and it's co-recorded album with the similar name. I just didn't care for some of it - some of those tracks seemed a bit labored.

Cheers,

[brianc]

There are a fair number of pipers/traditionalists who don't care for two of the pipers/traditionalists that Liam O'Flynn learned from (he actually learned from more than two). And he wasn't the first piper by any means to play outside what is now labelled 'tradition' by a long stretch of decades.

I never limited my statement by using any term to say that Liam learned ONLY from Rowsome or Ennis. You have, apparently, inferred that, but it was not my intention.

As for traditionalists who 'don't care' for Rowsome/Ennis, ... well, I fail to see your point - who gives a rat's rump for how many there are that care/don't care about the two? What's the point? That there are trad purists (a moniker which, no doubt, was surely self-appointed by those same 'purists') who don't care about two of the most influential pipers in our lifetimes? If that's the case, then we must all, as individuals, be lone purists, wandering the Earth in search of others like us. That seems pretty silly to me.

[Harry]

Oh, I think that you are referring to the account of the famous tenor John McCormac, another celebrity who knew shag all about uilleann piping. I think that he was more offended and embarrassed by Touhy's slap stick performances and 'Paddy' characterisations. Piping genius as Touhy was, he still took the shilling gladly by delighting the masses with whatever particular brand of distracting trivial nonsense that they wanted at the time, his antics made Lord of the Dunce look like Shakespear!... The count may have been right on that one, but not on the piping of course, he was from another world musically and probably had all the traditional music sense of a sea cucumber.

The point on people with traditional sensibilities (some of whom are extremely open minded and learned hence my refusal to use the term 'purist'... I've heard some of the most interesting thinkers and musicians called that by tone deaf, mental louts) not liking Ennis, Rowsome, Clancy or whatever was that to dislike a style of piping is not a new thing. Some people don't like a lot of O'Flynn's stuff because it's more than a bit boring in places regardless of his playing with orchestras, or they might just not like it for a million other reasons be they 'purists' (ohhh, bad guys.....hissssss!), 'innovators' (good guys....yeahhhh!) or market gardeners for that matter.

Not liking O'Flynn's piping is hardly just cause for suggesting someone is a purist, traditionalist or anything else. I know many people who you would probably call 'purists' who love O'Flynn's piping as it happens.

BTW, isn't referring to people as 'purists', 'traditionalist' etc. just another act on the pigeon hole?

Regards,

Harry.

[Harry]

ps. which piper that O'Flynn learned from does not qualify for your 'King' status pigeon hole? ...Clancy? Let it not be true!

Regards,

Harry.

[brianc]

Oy.

I give up.

I've little doubt that the owners / administrators of a forum such as this would prefer that general statements not be backed up by infinitesimally detailed statements which come complete with a detailed bibliography and executive summary outlining the many nuances of every written word.

Therefore, I hereby apologize to the entire Universe and all its inhabitants if I neglected to:

1) Name every teacher employed by Liam O'Flynn - Senior AND Junior;
2) Include the name of anyone, anywhere who has ever uttered the statement, "But that's not TRADITIONAL traditional Irish music in the puresty-pure-pure 99 44/100% of the art."

And finally, I apologize if I offended the sensibilities of pigeons everywhere.

Great freakin' googely-moogley, I give up.