Flute Idea Party

Doug_Tipple · Post by **Doug_Tipple** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:19 pm

I am having a flute idea party, and everone at the C & F flute forum is invited to attend. Here are the details:
What to bring: a flute idea. No idea is too outlandish or bizarre. It also could be a desire, that is, something that you would like to have with regard to flutes and flute playing. It could also be a question.
When is the party? It starts right now
Where is the party? Right here online at C & F

First idea: Flutes with cylindrical bores that are pitched lower than low D are difficult to play because of the larger distances between the tone holes. However, it is possible to make a flute with two thumb holes and four finger holes. They would be fingered with the thumb, index, and ring fingers of both hands. Using this technique large flutes in C and Bb could be made. The thumbs are usually used to support the flute, but it is possible to rock the thumbs, thereby opening the thumb hole and still giving support to the flute.

Jack Bradshaw · Post by **Jack Bradshaw** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:21 pm

Ok...(you and I must both have been tooting the Cote du Rhone over the holiday)

How about a big bore "D" flute (1" or more)...no third octave...but loud

I keep thinking of the ceramic "Reliable Bros." in G......that thing is loud.....let's see here..bore is 19mm...but this is a G !!!

Dana · Post by **Dana** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:30 pm

Flute arm rests. (Really, I need them!)

Dana

greenspiderweb · Post by **greenspiderweb** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:51 pm

Hi Robert,

I'm curious about the finger spread on a C or Bb or A flute with a cylindrical bore.

Why is it possible for whistle makers to do a low C, Bb, or A, like Alba has done already, that has a manageable finger spacing, using the piper's grip, and not be able to do that on the simple system cylindrical bore flute? Isn't it the same except for the end that is blown?

Somehow, I don't think many would care to adopt the thumb approach to fingering. The piper's grip is very easy to master, and transfer to the flute, don't you think?

Doug_Tipple · Post by **Doug_Tipple** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:25 pm

I got the idea of the two thumbs design from a Vietnamese notch flute that I own. I agree that it would be a little difficult to get use to, but the idea works very well.

To answer the question about the Alba low whistles, I have never played one of the whistles, but I assume that they have a conical bore, which allows for finger hole compression that is not possible on a cylindrical bore flute. If you try to make a Bb flute with a cylindrical bore, you will soon understand the problem. I have a low C cylindrical bore flute that I can play, but it isn't very comfortable, and the finger holes are even larger than on the low D flute. I think that Bb or A is out of the question for the average hand unless a different fingering method is accepted.

I'm still working on the flute armrest idea. My current design involves a strap that goes around your waist with lots of velcro. I haven't decided on whether to use PVC pipe or steel rebar for the main arm supports. Any suggestions?

greenspiderweb · Post by **greenspiderweb** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:14 am

Robert,

I checked with Stacey about her Alba whistles, and she says they are not conical, but parallel bores. She also said, that it might have something to do with the diameter, and that she hasn't tried to make a flute lower than D.

But she manages to make the whistles lower than D with manageable finger stretches for the pipers grip, as I stated before. So, would smaller diameter tubing let you use a shorter finger stretch?

SirNick · Post by **SirNick** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 7:30 am

OK Doug,
How about flush panels that could be slid with your finger to accurately set a given hole as a half hole for a song. They would only slide out far enough to give the perfect half-hole note.

I.D.10-t · Post by **I.D.10-t** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:00 am

Different shapes. Why straight? Want a low Bb with a nice third octave? Have as many elbows as a trumpet. Could really cut down finger spread.

Flute head for a trumpet?

Different shapes other than round for a taper. Start: round tube of brass, End: ellipse piece of tubing (great for A flat whistle.)

Might replace the wedge! I think that Ralph Sweet told me about some fifes made of square tubing that he had played!

Two keyed (as in Bb and D) double headed fife. Hey, some flutes have holes in the bottom for venting low D, why not put it to work?

Reuse military surplus 50 BMG barrels as fifes? It may have the same affects as the tipple dimples, and as vomitbunny states, it may help the notes shoot out faster. In addition the extra holes prevent them from being used for anything else.

Replacement flute or piccolo heads for all whistles! (especally the generations highest G whistle!:twisted: )

If these make you wonder or laugh then my job is done.

Doug_Tipple · Post by **Doug_Tipple** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:42 am

Barry, the I.D. of the pipe that I normally work with is 20-21 mm. I do have a low D PVC whistle that was made in India, and it has an I.D. of 26 mm. I notice that the finger spacing on this whistle is less than on my low D flute, mainly because the bore diameter is larger on the whistle. It is becoming clear to me that I could make a low C or an Eb flute if I could find the appropriate, off-the-shelf larger bore pipe. That is on my list of things to experiment with after the holidays. I must admit, however, that I am having some difficulty integrating all of the other ideas that have been submitted. But thanks for the ideas.

djm · Post by **djm** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:04 am

I would still like a Bnat flute, no keys, and if you can change the internal bore to limit the spacing between the tone holes that would be great.

djm

hans · Post by **hans** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:59 am

Instead of half-holing certain notes could one have two holes side by side, one smaller one bigger, and cover both for one note and one only for the semi tone up, as you find on many recorders?

To bring finger spacing closer for low flutes create an inner conical taper on the PVC tube by pouring in epoxy resin (flute body must be in one part only for this, ie. two part flute not three part).

treeshark · Post by **treeshark** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 11:16 am

This is hard! Flutes have been around for so long that most things have been tried. But here goes a: Wah Wah flute, putting a spring in the tuning slide so that the tuning can be altered by a thumb lever during a note- great for tremeloes and serious note bending!
Oh I know it's just grafting a swannee whistle on to a flute but its the weekend and my brain is slow.

Doug_Tipple · Post by **Doug_Tipple** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 11:57 am

Hans's idea of using double holes like on a recorder is an obvious one that I have thought about and have experimented with. It works well for the recorder, but my attempts to do the same thing with a flute was not successful. I constructed a low D flute with the double holes for finger holes five and six, like on a recorder. However, in order to make this work pitch-wise, the finger holes need to be quite small. The played notes that resulted from this two-hole configuration were weak and airy, more like whistle notes and not acceptable for a flute tone, in my opinion.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:55 pm

greenspiderweb wrote:Hi Robert,

I'm curious about the finger spread on a C or Bb or A flute with a cylindrical bore.

Why is it possible for whistle makers to do a low C, Bb, or A, like Alba has done already, that has a manageable finger spacing, using the piper's grip, and not be able to do that on the simple system cylindrical bore flute? Isn't it the same except for the end that is blown?

Somehow, I don't think many would care to adopt the thumb approach to fingering. The piper's grip is very easy to master, and transfer to the flute, don't you think?

Let's put this myth to rest (that the finger spread on a Bb flute is less manageable than that of a similar Low Bb whistle): Stu, G., somebody with a standard R&R derived Bb flute, please measure the span of the first three and last three holes - Measure from the top edge of the first hole (closest to the embouchure), to the bottom edge(closest to the foot) of the third hole. Reapeat for the right hand holes.

Ditto someone with a Low Bb cylindrical whistle.

I suggest these distances on the Bb flute will be around the same or less than that of a well tuned whistle

Loren

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:56 pm

treeshark wrote:This is hard! Flutes have been around for so long that most things have been tried. But here goes a: Wah Wah flute, putting a spring in the tuning slide so that the tuning can be altered by a thumb lever during a note- great for tremeloes and serious note bending!
Oh I know it's just grafting a swannee whistle on to a flute but its the weekend and my brain is slow.

Robert Dick glissando head joint:
http://www.robertdick.net/index2.htm

At the end of the intro there is a link in the window...

Denny

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