Rolls are no longer elusive!

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 9:38 am

I was really just trying to point out that different people learn things in different ways. Also different people are attracted to learning this music for different reasons.

That was not an attack on Steve or on any of his teaching materials, which I think are quite valuable.

This was not meant to be an attack of any kind--my apologies to anyone who took it as being in any way objectionable.

--James

McHaffie · Post by **McHaffie** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 10:55 am

Don't you understand? You are hereby convicted of incorrectly wording your post!!! You sir are Wrong!!!

peeplj wrote:I was really just trying to ....

WRONG!!

peeplj wrote:point out that different people learn things in different ....

WRONG!!!

peeplj wrote:Also different people are ....

WRONG!!!

peeplj wrote:... different reasons...

WRONG!!!

Do you not hear us?? You are WRONG!!!

peeplj wrote:That was not an attack on Steve or on any of his teaching materials, which I think are quite valuable.

Oh yes... back out now, but you shall still burn in the fires of your haste and empty threats!!! You can not hide from ... from... you ARE WRONG!!!

Sorry.. too much TV today...

I read and re-read everything that was typed regarding this whole thing, and I can see where things could be taken one way or the other. I am probably the most guilty of wording things where they could be taken for the worst where I meant them the most positive. I think wires got croseed a bit and then explanations even got mistaken on top of that, so hopefully it's pretty much resolved now.

Take care,
John

P.S. this first part of this email should obviously be a joke for everyone. If not, then re-read and notice the laugh at the end. It's for fun.

izzarina · Post by **izzarina** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 10:58 am

McHaffie wrote:P.S. this first part of this email should obviously be a joke for everyone. If not, then re-read and notice the laugh at the end. It's for fun.

I thought it was quite funny! Thanks for lightening things up!

izzarina · Post by **izzarina** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:06 am

FWIW....thank you all for the contributions. Each opinion is helpful in many ways to all of us.

As for me, I tend more toward the opinion (which unlike NorCal I am allowed to hold!

) that it's better to know the basic logistics of playing a jig before you attempt to do the ornamentation on them. Right now, since I have not attempted jigs for the most part, I am trying to learn how to do basic rolls in those tunes that I CAN play already (mostly airs). I think it is correct that the rhythm of a tune is very important, and therefore it is important to learn HOW to play the tune before you jazz it up, if that makes sense.
Anyway, Steve, the site looks great....I was a bit confused at first for I had been using it with the frames and all of that one day, and then the next, it was "new and improved"...threw me for a minute or two.

There were a couple of links that were not working...I don't remember which ones offhand, but I can go back and find them, and then email them to you, if you would like. Lastly, thank you again for your site. It has helped me tremendously!

McHaffie · Post by **McHaffie** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:18 am

By the way Izz... I love your avatar... did you make it? It's extremely well done. The way the light works in the picture is just awesome... it really draws you in and creates a 'fantasy realm' sort of pocket in your mind to identify with the individual in the picture.

IDAwHOa · Post by **IDAwHOa** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 11:49 am

Bloomfield wrote:
NorCalMusician wrote:Whoa, Steve, I did not read that as being an attack on you or anything you said or promote, but more a general statement and comment that there are SOME people that get so caught up on THEIR OWN priorities that they lose sight of other aspects of music. He did say he was not disagreeing.
Read it again, NorCal.

I did, several times, before and after I responded. I just chose to not take it as negative as it could (and was) interpreted. I have had MANY of my posts, some of the in attempts to be funny, misinterpreted and have learned the written word can be so easily misconstrued.

People can get angry and defensive over some of the most simple and misunderstood things. I have taken to not posting sometimes because of fearing this sort of thing. Isn't that sad?

Darwin · Post by **Darwin** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:05 pm

NorCalMusician wrote:People can get angry and defensive over some of the most simple and misunderstood things. I have taken to not posting sometimes because of fearing this sort of thing. Isn't that sad?

Tragic.

I do that (avoid posting a particularly cute and amusing bit out of fear of insulting someone) myself, sometimes, but probably not as often as I should.

Joe_Atlanta · Post by **Joe_Atlanta** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:47 pm

Bloomfield wrote:I think Jenny may have been referring to rolling the second beat in bars 1, 3, 5 in the A part.

OK, I've canned the roll in the last measure of the phrase and I'm looking at the measures you name. It seems you are saying to substitute the roll for the syncopation with the D (example 1 & 2 below)? So, short or long (or is that just taste and feel)? Also, how about a short roll after the D (example 3)? Too much motion?

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:00 pm

NorCalMusician wrote:Whoa, Steve, I did not read I did, several times, before and after I responded. I just chose to not take it as negative as it could (and was) interpreted. I have had MANY of my posts, some of the in attempts to be funny, misinterpreted and have learned the written word can be so easily misconstrued.

People can get angry and defensive over some of the most simple and misunderstood things. I have taken to not posting sometimes because of fearing this sort of thing. Isn't that sad?

Bless you, NorCal for you magnanimity (how the hell is anyone supposed to be able to spell that wihtout looking it up). I like it that you try not to take posts as negatively as they could be taken. Strange coincidence, really, that Jim was talking about One True Way, Lost, and myoptic just then.

Nevermind, I don't think it matters one way or another, and don't even think Jim disgrees with what Steve was saying. (Jim by the way would be the first one to agree that the poster bears responsibility for how something can be read and not only for good intentions in posting.)

Happy roll rolling all around, and I'd like to apologize in advance for this post. If you don't read it charitably, you're square.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:22 pm

Joe_Atlanta wrote:
Bloomfield wrote:I think Jenny may have been referring to rolling the second beat in bars 1, 3, 5 in the A part.
OK, I've canned the roll in the last measure of the phrase and I'm looking at the measures you name. It seems you are saying to substitute the roll for the syncopation with the D (example 1 & 2 below)? So, short or long (or is that just taste and feel)? Also, how about a short roll after the D (example 3)? Too much motion?

Reading Brother Steve will help. Here is my take on it, though:

Step one: Forget short rolls in jigs. They belong in reels. (But see 3 below).

Step two: Long rolls in jigs take one beat, or three eight-notes. They always appear on the beat. So you can have a bar that goes Roooooooooll Note Note Note or a bar that goes Note Note Note Roooooooooll. If you don't know where to play long rolls in jigs, here are three simple rules:

- You can replace dotted quarter notes with rolls (G3 become ~G3 [~ means roll])

- You can replace groups of three eigth-notes with rolls if the first and last of the three eighth notes are the same pitch.

- Avoid long rolls at the end of a phrase if it means that you have to skip an pick-up note.

Now, like all simple rules, there is more to the story and they aren't always true. But you can do much worse than to stick to these.

Step Three: After you've gotten the long rolls down pat and square you can start using short rolls in jigs, but only on the beat, never offbeat or stradling beats.

A|~F2A AFA|Bd... etc etc is ok (that the beginning of a tune called Rathawaun).

Now, in Cook in the Kitchen, I would roll the GFG on the second beat of that bar that you reproduced. Or I would roll the first beat, but in both cases long rolls:

DGG ~G3 or ~G3 GFG

To hear clean rolls placed well in a double jig, check out this transcription of Willie Clancy playing Maid on the Green. You can read along on the side. Notice that rolls really aren't anything but the note repeated three times, separated by a cut and a tap.

Before you attempt rolls in jigs, you'd ideally be able to play like this:
Joe Bane's Shandon Bells.

Index of transcriptions: http://www.rogermillington.com/tunetoc/index.html

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:28 pm

Joe_Atlanta wrote:
Bloomfield wrote:I think Jenny may have been referring to rolling the second beat in bars 1, 3, 5 in the A part.
OK, I've canned the roll in the last measure of the phrase and I'm looking at the measures you name. It seems you are saying to substitute the roll for the syncopation with the D (example 1 & 2 below)? So, short or long (or is that just taste and feel)? Also, how about a short roll after the D (example 3)? Too much motion?

Joe,

I've not heard that tune played with anything like those sequences in bars 3, 5 and 8 - or anywhere else for that matter, so I don't know what to suggest.

Actually I wonder where Jennie does her rolling on Gs in the first part of that tune. Unless you are all playing a version quite different from those I've heard.

Bloomfield is probably talking about playing DGG GAG in those bars, and separating the three consecutive Gs with a cut a tap. Actually I wouldn't call that a roll at all, but I can see how it could be so called.

Personally, I don't have any objection to a short roll on the last beat of the phrase, before the pickup note, but it needs to be a real short roll, which is a very snappy little animal indeed.

All this aside (one true way advisory - those likely to object please stop reading here) to my mind your wondering where rolls might be put in is grabbing hold of the wrong end of the stick. What should really inform your choices as to where to put ornaments should be your listening. Doing it any other way is likely to lead to odd results.

HTH
Steve

PS I see Bloo and I have been addressing the subject at the same time. What he says is all good enough advice. But I still think it's your listening that should be deciding. To my ear, DGG ~G3 does nothing for the tune - ni fact interrupts the flow of the phrase.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:40 pm

StevieJ wrote:Bloomfield is probably talking about playing DGG GAG in those bars, and separating the three consecutive Gs with a cut a tap. Actually I wouldn't call that a roll at all, but I can see how it could be so called.

Not what I meant, wouldn't call it a roll either, and my personal preference is always to land on the beat with a cut, so that I'd play DG tap G cut GAG, if at all.

izzarina · Post by **izzarina** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:15 pm

McHaffie wrote:By the way Izz... I love your avatar... did you make it?

I would love to say that I did, but, well....I didn't.

I just happened upon it somewhere on the web and loved it. And I agree, it does seem to draw you in. Part of why I liked it so much. Thanks for the compliment!

Joe_Atlanta · Post by **Joe_Atlanta** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 2:18 pm

Bloomfield wrote:Lots of good stuff.

It's kind of funny that my questions came out of a basic misunderstanding of terms. When you originally said to put the roll on the second beat of the measure, I thought that literally meant the 2nd 8th note of the six (rather than the second beat as counted or tapped with the foot). Thus the wierd starting places for the rolls in the graphic.

At any rate, I'm glad, since the answer really helped me get a better hold on the whole topic. My thanks to you (and StevieJ) for taking the time.