jkrazy52 wrote:Question 1: If I have whistle X and can play it for 60 seconds before needing to take a breath, then try whistle Z and can only play it 45 seconds before needing a breath (same song) .... whistle X has more backpressure?
Question 2: If I have a very quiet whistle and want to "tweak" it to make a louder whistle, do I only need to find a way to increase the backpressure?
The knowledge displayed and shared on this board amazes me -- as well as making me feel incredibly stupid, at times
~Judy
Great questions, Judy! And I too am amazed at the knowledge here, and even more amazed at how everyone seems to WANT to share it! At some point, I hope to know as much as the people here.....until then, I suppose I'm destined to ask millions of questions!
Someday, everything is gonna be diff'rent
When I paint my masterpiece.
jkrazy52 wrote:Well, that certainly makes everything clear ......
Question 1: If I have whistle X and can play it for 60 seconds before needing to take a breath, then try whistle Z and can only play it 45 seconds before needing a breath (same song) .... whistle X has more backpressure?
Question 2: If I have a very quiet whistle and want to "tweak" it to make a louder whistle, do I only need to find a way to increase the backpressure?
The knowledge displayed and shared on this board amazes me -- as well as making me feel incredibly stupid, at times
~Judy
1) No, it'd be the other way round. But why would you play for 60 seconds without taking a breath?
2) I suspect that the whistle will always be quiet which is a Good Thing. Whistles are very high pitched and are louder to other people than you think.
jkrazy52 wrote:Well, that certainly makes everything clear ......
Question 1: If I have whistle X and can play it for 60 seconds before needing to take a breath, then try whistle Z and can only play it 45 seconds before needing a breath (same song) .... whistle X has more backpressure?
Question 2: If I have a very quiet whistle and want to "tweak" it to make a louder whistle, do I only need to find a way to increase the backpressure?
The knowledge displayed and shared on this board amazes me -- as well as making me feel incredibly stupid, at times
~Judy
1) No, it'd be the other way round. But why would you play for 60 seconds without taking a breath?
2) I suspect that the whistle will always be quiet which is a Good Thing. Whistles are very high pitched and are louder to other people than you think.
sorry martin, but i think she is correct. no? the higher the backpressure, the greater the resistance, means the longer it takes for you to empty your lungs, meaning the longer you play without having to gasp for air.
am i wrong?
I think Martin is right.
You must work harder (expell more air from your lungs) to play the 45 second whistle, which is why you can only play it for 45 seconds.
emmline wrote:I think Martin is right.
You must work harder (expell more air from your lungs) to play the 45 second whistle, which is why you can only play it for 45 seconds.
No, Martin has got it backpressurewards.
High backpressure = less air moving through the whistle = longer time between breaths
low backpressure = more air moving throught he whistle = shorter time between breaths.
Whistles with high back pressure will have long or narrow windways (or both long and narrow ones). (Reason: the smaller a tube or the longer it is, the more pressure you need to blow through it. Think snorkles.)
Whistles with low packpressure have large windways or short windways or both.
Last edited by Bloomfield on Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jkrazy52 wrote:Well, that certainly makes everything clear ......
Question 1: If I have whistle X and can play it for 60 seconds before needing to take a breath, then try whistle Z and can only play it 45 seconds before needing a breath (same song) .... whistle X has more backpressure?
Question 2: If I have a very quiet whistle and want to "tweak" it to make a louder whistle, do I only need to find a way to increase the backpressure?
The knowledge displayed and shared on this board amazes me -- as well as making me feel incredibly stupid, at times
~Judy
question 1: See above.
question 2: No. I am not a whistle builder, but I don't think more or less backpressure is the first thing you try to change volume. Volume depends on the width of the bore (you can't tweak that easily), for starters. More important still is the size of the window. A broad window and broad windway will give more volume. Next there is the placement of the blade. If the blade is poorly positioned (typically too high), air will be wasted without producing sound as it streams past the blade (think Serpent whistles, at least the ones I've tried), and the whistle will be quieter. You can tweak that, by bringing the blade down, about level with the bottom of the windway. This is why JerryGens are louder than regular ones. Difficult to do on a curved windway, though. You can try moving the blade back, making the window deeper. That will affect volume (making the whistle louder while requiring more air), but it will also affect tuning, esp. the tuning between octaves, so careful there.
Bloomfield wrote:You can try moving the blade back, making the window deeper. That will affect volume (making the whistle louder while requiring more air), but it will also affect tuning, esp. the tuning between octaves, so careful there.
Considering that the formulas that I've seen for fingerhole placement involve percentages of the distance between the edge of the blade (the "lip") and the far end (the "foot"), it seems that changing the lip location toward or away from the foot (as opposed to changing its shape or shifting its placement into or out of the tube) would change the tuning between notes, as the relative percentages would change.
On the other hand, increasing the size of the window on the side opposite the lip won't affect that ratio, so it shouldn't affect the tuning, either.
Of course, the reality is probably not quite that simple. Or, is it?
Mike Wright
"When an idea is wanting, a word can always be found to take its place."
--Goethe
Darwin wrote:On the other hand, increasing the size of the window on the side opposite the lip won't affect that ratio, so it shouldn't affect the tuning, either.
Of course, the reality is probably not quite that simple. Or, is it?
Say you're trying this with a cheapo, like a Generation. You can at the same time bring the blade further back and move the entire head forward, compensating. Actually bringing the side of the window where the windway exits forward (by filing it back) is something I've never tried. Also, window size is damn close to optimal on Generations or Feadogs in my experience.
You're right about the percentages and hole placement and tuning. But there is a certain amount of variation you can get away with. After all hardly anyone complains about "tunable" whistles in this respect, all of which work by distorting the lip-to-foot ratio and the percentages for hole placement. (One of the reasons btw why tunable whistles aren't necessarily better than non-tunable ones.) To a certain degree the player can compensate, of course.
Wow! Thanks for all the answers, everyone -- right or wrong ...
Martin Milner wrote: I suspect that the whistle will always be quiet which is a Good Thing. Whistles are very high pitched and are louder to other people than you think.
Yes, my family totally agrees ....
Cranberry wrote:If you have within you the capacity to admit that you are stupid, then you probably are not.
Thanks, Cranberry ... I think
Bloomfield wrote:question 1: See above.
question 2: No. I am not a whistle builder ...
Thank you very much -- I even understand most of this; but will be trashing any hidden desires to design whistles immediately. Too much like work!
Tell us something.: I used to be a regular then I took up the bassoon. Bassoons don't have a lot of chiff. Not really, I have always been a drummer, and my C&F years were when I was a little tired of the drums. Now I'm back playing drums. I mist the C&F years, though.
Question 1: If I have whistle X and can play it for 60 seconds before needing to take a breath, then try whistle Z and can only play it 45 seconds before needing a breath (same song) .... whistle X has more backpressure?
~Judy
It's not quite that simple. One can run out of breath because one uses all the air in his lungs. Or he can run out with air still in his lungs but because he's run out of oxygen. With a high backpressure/low volume whistle, you could need to take a breath before you ahve used all the air in your lungs, especially if you're not particularly inclined to aerobic exercising.
"Meon an phobail a thogail trid an chultur"
(The people’s spirit is raised through culture)
Question 1: If I have whistle X and can play it for 60 seconds before needing to take a breath, then try whistle Z and can only play it 45 seconds before needing a breath (same song) .... whistle X has more backpressure?
~Judy
It's not quite that simple. One can run out of breath because one uses all the air in his lungs. Or he can run out with air still in his lungs but because he's run out of oxygen. With a high backpressure/low volume whistle, you could need to take a breath before you ahve used all the air in your lungs, especially if you're not particularly inclined to aerobic exercising.
very well put, and logical, but i would think a whistle would need an enormous amout of backpressure for one's body to run out of O2, while there still being air in the lungs.
but heck, maybe those whistles exist, don't know..
FJohnSharp wrote:It's not quite that simple. One can run out of breath because one uses all the air in his lungs. Or he can run out with air still in his lungs but because he's run out of oxygen. With a high backpressure/low volume whistle, you could need to take a breath before you ahve used all the air in your lungs, especially if you're not particularly inclined to aerobic exercising.
Maybe this explains what happens when I play my new Hoover Whitecap. As soon as I got it, I could tell it took very little air. However, I was puzzled when I found myself gasping for breath while I played it. Then I observed that, before I took a breath, I had to let the air OUT of my lungs first. I don't know if the Whitecap fits in the "high backpressure" category or not, but your explanation made sense.
Some whistles have average backpressure, but require very soft blowing. You don't get resistance/backpressure, but if you blow harder, you'll overblow and pop into the upper when you're trying to play the lower register and not play cleanly when you're trying to play the upper register. Then, when you back off on the amount of air you use, you find the sweet spot.
These are whistles where you can run out of breath before you run out of air.
At some point, I hope to know as much as the people here.....until then, I suppose I'm destined to ask millions of questions! 
