OT - Forgiveness

[Darwin]

I was just listening to the Lonesome Sisters' second CD on my way to put a whistle in the mail, and noted the following chorus in Forgiveness:

Explain it all to Him and maybe he will take you in
And you can tell Him about the sorry, cheatin' fool that you have been
You want a love that's divine, you need the Heavenly kind
You want forgiveness, tell that to Jesus, that's His job, not mine

This reminded me of hearing Iris Dement sing:

God may forgive you but I won't
Yes, Jesus loves you but I don't
They don't have to live with you, neither do I
You say that you're born again, well so am I
God may forgive you, but I won't
I won't even try

Now what I want to know is, is that a nice attitude? Why are the womens so mean and spiteful? Why can't they be loving and forgiving, like men?

[scottielvr]

Given the species depicted in your avatar, I should think that a rhetorical question...

[feadogin]

Now what I want to know is, is that a nice attitude? Why are the womens so mean and spiteful? Why can't they be loving and forgiving, like men?

I don't think being forgiving is related to gender. It depends on the individual.

J.

[Walden]

I don't think being forgiving is related to gender. It depends on the individual.

Well, that clears that up.

[Nanohedron]

Now what I want to know is, is that a nice attitude? Why are the womens so mean and spiteful? Why can't they be loving and forgiving, like men?

[Jennie]

You want forgiveness, tell that to Jesus, that's His job, not mine

God may forgive you, but I won't
I won't even try

Now what I want to know is, is that a nice attitude?

I tend to be optimistic about the potential for us humans. I choose to believe that these folks are still working through the process that may eventually lead to forgiveness... they just need a little cathartic blaming first, to get it out of their system.

I think we all could get there, if we only were granted the time. :roll:
And what's an extra century or so, to God?

Jennie

[Darwin]

I don't think being forgiving is related to gender. It depends on the individual.

Well, that clears that up.

But 'twarnt no fun.

[spittin_in_the_wind]

Well, this was written by a man....

http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/s ... 0&view=usa

" One of the most profound interactions that can occur between people, apologies have the power to heal humiliations, free the mind from deep-seated guilt, remove the desire for vengeance, and ultimately restore broken relationships. In On Apology, Aaron Lazare offers an eye-opening analysis of this vital interaction, illuminating an often hidden corner of the human heart.

Why do people apologize? Why is it so difficult to apologize? Why do some apologies heal while others fail--and even offend? Is it ever too late to apologize? Is the ability to apologize a sign of strength or weakness? In what ways are public apologies different from private ones? What is the relationship of apology to forgiveness? Lazare answers all these questions in this fascinating volume. Indeed, the author offers a wide-ranging dissection of the apology. He discusses the importance of shame, guilt, and humiliation, the timelessness of emotional pain, the initial reluctance to apologize, the simplicity of the act of apologizing, the spontaneous generosity and forgiveness on the part of the offended, the transfer of power and respect between two parties, and much more. Throughout, the author looks not only at individuals but also at groups and nations--for instance, Abraham Lincoln's apology for slavery, the German government's apology to the victims of World War II, and the U.S. government's apology to Japanese-Americans interned during World War II. Readers will thus find not only a wealth of insight that they can apply to their own lives, but also a deeper understanding of national and international conflicts and how we might resolve them.

Everyone has the opportunity to apologize now and then. On Apology opens a window onto this common occurrence to reveal the feelings and actions at the heart of this profound interaction. "



Robin

[The Weekenders]

Too many repeat viewings of "Thelma and Louise" and too many repeated playings of the song "Earl." Oh yeah, and too many times watching Danny Glover in Color Purple.

[Wombat]

I'm not sure I really know what forgiveness is. Oh, of course I get certain basics. There are ways you are supposed not to act if you have forgiven: no revenge, no vindictiveness, no more whining and whinging. There are also ways you are supposed not to feel if you have genuinely forgiven: no more rage and anger, no festering grudge. But I have two questions.

First, is forgiveness compatible with continuing or future punishment? I mean: can you execute someone you have forgiven? Can you continue to keep someone you have forgiven in jail? I don't mean can you do these things as a deterrant; I mean can you do them as a punishment?

Second, does forgiveness require that one make an active effort? I'm not the vindictive type. Sure I feel like the women in those songs when I'm freshly wounded but after a while I simply lose the intensity of feeling and the anger. I don't have to try; it just happens. I don't think I've ever made an effort to forgive someone in my life, not that I can readily recall. Sure I hold a dim view of the character of certain people but I usually mellow even in that regard. I don't hold deep grudges. I don't have very high expectations and I'm delighted when people exceed them as some people do repeatedly—for them I feel truly blessed. So, have I ever really forgiven anyone? It seems hard to claim credit for things that just happen without my even trying—feels like feeling proud of being able to breathe.

[Darwin]

I'm not sure I really know what forgiveness is. Oh, of course I get certain basics. There are ways you are supposed not to act if you have forgiven: no revenge, no vindictiveness, no more whining and whinging. There are also ways you are supposed not to feel if you have genuinely forgiven: no more rage and anger, no festering grudge. But I have two questions.

First, is forgiveness compatible with continuing or future punishment? I mean: can you execute someone you have forgiven? Can you continue to keep someone you have forgiven in jail? I don't mean can you do these things as a deterrant; I mean can you do them as a punishment?

I would say "No". Of course, if you're just plain mean, you can even punish people that you are not actually mad at.

Second, does forgiveness require that one make an active effort? I'm not the vindictive type. Sure I feel like the women in those songs when I'm freshly wounded but after a while I simply lose the intensity of feeling and the anger. I don't have to try; it just happens. I don't think I've ever made an effort to forgive someone in my life, not that I can readily recall. Sure I hold a dim view of the character of certain people but I usually mellow even in that regard. I don't hold deep grudges. I don't have very high expectations and I'm delighted when people exceed them as some people do repeatedly—for them I feel truly blessed. So, have I ever really forgiven anyone? It seems hard to claim credit for things that just happen without my even trying—feels like feeling proud of being able to breathe.

I'm the same way. Having grown up when corporal punishment was the norm, I used to spank my kids, but never in anger, and carefully measured out. As soon as they were old enough for other methods to be applied, even that ended. In all my time in the Army, I only once yelled at a subordinate (though I often quietly cursed my superiors).

Right after 9/11, my first reaction was that we should just nuke the entire Middle East until the whole thing fused into one immense glassy parking lot (which is maybe why no one write me in for President), but within a day or so, all that was gone.

However, this doesn't seem to be universal. An awful lot of Buddhist literature focuses on dealing with anger. Also, I've known a few people who can hold a serious grudge--to the point of refusing to even be in the same room with the object of their disaffection. I assume that for them, forgiveness would require some kind of positive effort.

If there aren't more than a few people like that, it becomes rather difficult to explain things like blood feuds. I most often hear arguments in favor of real punishment in terms of "justice", as Jim Stone nicely laid it out on page 238 of the political thread (and which I responded to on the next page). There's something called "victim's rights" which seems to include the right of surviving family members to see pain inflicted on a murderer.

One thing that makes it easy for me is that I don't believe in "free will" (or even understand what it really means). Even though I may have an immediate visceral response to an event, once I start thinking about it, there is no support for ideas about "blame" as I would have understood it when I was a kid.

One of the nicest stories I know about this came from Ricky Skaggs. I think it was on the Tonight Show when Johnny Carson was still there. It seems that Ricky's ex-wife pulled ahead of someone on a freeway, and the guy pulled up alongside the car and shot their 7-year-old son right in the face.

Naturally, Ricky was extremely upset, but when he was able to see his son in the hospital, his son said something like, "Daddy, you have to forgive that man. That's what Jesus would do." And Ricky said that when he heard that, all his anger drained away.

I thought that it was great that this kid was too young to know that people aren't really supposed to act the way Jesus said they should.

[Darwin]

I suppose that to balance the sex thing, I should quote from Rain and Snow, which appears on two of my newest CDs (Chieftains and Lonesome Sisters):

She walked into the room
Where she met her fatal doom
And I ain't gonna be treated this-a-way

I shot her in the head
And I laid her on the bed
And I ain't gonna be treated this-a-way

Her baby cried all night
I know that what I done ain't right
The wind howled her name oh so low

[Wombat]

I suppose that to balance the sex thing, I should quote from Rain and Snow, which appears on two of my newest CDs (Chieftains and Lonesome Sisters):
........

Here's another one in which forgiveness seems to have been in short supply: Knoxville Girl.

I met a little girl in Knoxville
A town we all know well
And every Sunday evening
Out in her home I'd dwell
We went to take an evening walk
About a mile from town
I picked a stick up off the ground
And knocked that fair girl down;

She fell down on her bended knees
For mercy she did cry
Oh, Willie dear, don't kill me here
I'm unprepared to die
She never spoke another word
I only beat her more
Until the ground around me
Within her blood did flow.

I took her by her golden curls
And I drug her 'round and 'round
Throwing her into the river
That flows through Knoxville town
Go down, go down, you Knoxville girl
With the dark and roving eyes
Go down, go down, you Knoxville girl
You can never be my bride.

I started back to Knoxville
Got there about midnight
My mother she was worried
And woke up in a fright
Saying, ""Dear son, what have you done
To bloody your clothes so?""
I told my anxious mother
I was bleeding at my nose.

I called for me a candle
To light myself to bed
I called for me a handkerchief
To bind my aching head
Rolled and tumbled the whole night through
As troubles was for me
Like flames of hell around my bed
And in my eyes could see.

*They carried me down to Knoxville
And put me in a cell
My friends all tried to get me out
But none could go my bail
I'm here to waste my life away
Down in this dirty old jail
Because I murdered that Knoxville girl
The girl I loved so well.

This is one of the most disturbing songs I know; the very matter-of-factness makes it far more shocking than anything by, say, recent rappers who set out to shock. Perhaps the most disturbing aspect is that we are never told the reason for the murder, as though that was just what you'd expect to happen while taking an evening stroll with your sweetheart in Knoxville.

[Martin Milner]

I was just listening to the Lonesome Sisters'...

And now you know why they are lonesome!

[brewerpaul]

This reminded me of hearing Iris Dement sing:

God may forgive you, but I won't
I won't even try

Now what I want to know is, is that a nice attitude? Why are the womens so mean and spiteful? Why can't they be loving and forgiving, like men?

Forgiveness is a major theme of the recently past Jewish High Holiday season, and this exact issue is addressed. We are taught that before God will forgive us for our shortcomings, we must first seek forgiveness from people that we have wronged in the past year. These wrongs might be intentional or not, or possibly not even known eg, you might have said something, unaware that it offended or hurt the other person. During the period between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, we are urged to go to our acquaintanences and ask their forgiveness for these transgressions. Believe me, it really makes you look long and hard at your actions. I highly recommend this for people of all faiths (and sexes...) or even those of a completely secular bent.