Poll: Guess what?

The Ultimate On-Line Whistle Community. If you find one more ultimater, let us know.

Which candidate helped his candidacy most in the 9/30 "debate"?

President Bush
9
14%
Senator Kerry
55
86%
 
Total votes: 64

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Lorenzo
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Post by Lorenzo »

Darwin wrote:Even my previous residence, Marina, CA, tiny as it is (population: 18,343, 8.7 square miles), has had some very nasty non-partisan elections.
True, non-partisan candidates/officers can still have fights, and local governments can still have a lot of politics that mess them up. But, it does help reduce the political polarization that seems to almost cripple some communities.
Note that even with a much smaller population, national elections seem to have always led people to form a few large parties. I suspect that the only way to prevent this would be to have a law prohibiting people from forming formal parties. But, I don't think you could constitutionally prevent people from forming groups and meeting to support a particular candidate. Even though the system supports this now, it seems to have originally evolved through the actions of the people.
For cities, state codes prevent non-charter cities from partisan elections. I suppose it could with counties and state offices as well.
Califonia state elections commonly see gubernatorial candidates from about eight or ten parties (Green, Libertarian, Natural Law, ect.), but most people vote for the Democrat or the Republican. No one forces them to do this. Whether this tendency to go for predominant groups is a flaw in human nature, or not, is open to debate, but it seems to be a fact that it exists.
Right, and there are no non-partisan positions except sometimes judicial and precinct officers, etc.
Let's say I decided to run for President under a non-partisan system, how would I go about it? If I didn't have a party, would I have to fund the campaign myself?
That's the problem, creating a system where special interests are not involved. When big money is involved, there is a high risk of corruption. The media is the key, and volunteers.
I can imagine starting out with a few thousand candidates and having maybe a dozen votes to pare down the group. I'm not sure the final result would be any better than what we have now. How long would it take a voter to figure out which candidate is best? (Since I'm obviously best, would most voters find it easy to realize that fact?)
The point is to open up the system so the two super parties don't have the power to exclude other candidates from total participation, like the debates, etc.
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Teri-K
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Post by Teri-K »

rodfish wrote:Isn't it interesting that the votes cast in this pole for the debate "winner" just seem to reflect the political leanings of the board as a whole. Obviously there are many more Kerryites than Bushies. :)

Rod
If all 47 votes had posted to this thread stating their political leanings were Kerry, I might agree. Moreover, if all 3,949 members participated in the political thread, showing a large margin of Kerry supporters, I might agree. Only a very small percentage of the board membership participates in political discussion, and of that very small percentage, more Kerry supporters than Bush supporters state their views. With that in mind, I don't see that this little poll represents anything, "as a whole".

The more intelligent of our membership stay out of the political mine field :)
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Post by caniadafallon »

Hmm... I'm usually one of those people that stays out of the political discussions, but someone just sent me this animated cartoon and I had to share because it was too funny:

Presidential Horror Show

Of course, you have to be a bit of a Rocky Horror fan to truly appreciate it. :twisted:

~Ad
Music washes away from the soul
the dust of everyday life.
~Berthold Auerbach
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Walden
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Post by Walden »

Lorenzo wrote:
Walden wrote:
Lorenzo wrote:Most cities in the US are nonpartisan.
Not Tulsa, but they were on the town manager system till relatively recently.
Tulsa, up until 1989, had a Commission form of gov't (5 commissioners--which are both legislative and administrative in nature--an out-dated form of gov't). Then it changed it's form of gov't to a Mayer/Council (not Manager) form of gov't with 9 councilmember which are elected from various wards.
Correct. I had intended to say city commission, my lapse was in that when so many moved from Tulsa to Claremore, Claremore went to a city manager system, knocking my aunt's father-in-law, the Democratic city treasurer, out of politics (but not out of office, though he recently retired).
According to the Tulsa City Charter candidates can also run as Independants (no party affiliation) as well as the various organized political parties. That's not true with Presidential candidates which have to declare a political (partisan) party. In essence, Tulsa could have all non-partisans on the city council (including the mayor), unlike the US president or congress.
But this would be better put that they had the option of running as independents, in that they do state their political affiliation and have party primaries.
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Lorenzo
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Post by Lorenzo »

Walden wrote:
According to the Tulsa City Charter candidates can also run as Independents (no party affiliation) as well as the various organized political parties. That's not true with Presidential candidates which have to declare a political (partisan) party. In essence, Tulsa could have all non-partisans on the city council (including the mayor), unlike the US president or congress.
But this would be better put that they had the option of running as independents, in that they do state their political affiliation and have party primaries.
This is all the requirements I can see relating to an Independent filing for elective office. Maybe I'm missing something somewhere, but I see nothing that would have an Independent candidate disclose a political affiliation.

SECTION 3.2 FILING FOR OFFICE--INDEPENDENT CANDIDATES.
Any person who desires to be an independent candidate for a city office shall file with the Election Board of Tulsa County or its successor a Declaration of Candidacy which shall state: A. The name and residence street address of the person as it appears on the voter registration records; and B. The name of the office sought. The Declaration of Candidacy of the independent candidate shall have attached a supporting petition which shall be signed by at least three hundred (300) qualified electors from the city at large if the independent candidate seeks the office of Mayor or City Auditor or from the election district if the independent candidate seeks the office of Councilor from an election district.
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Walden
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Post by Walden »

Lorenzo wrote:
Walden wrote:
According to the Tulsa City Charter candidates can also run as Independents (no party affiliation) as well as the various organized political parties. That's not true with Presidential candidates which have to declare a political (partisan) party. In essence, Tulsa could have all non-partisans on the city council (including the mayor), unlike the US president or congress.
But this would be better put that they had the option of running as independents, in that they do state their political affiliation and have party primaries.
This is all the requirements I can see relating to an Independent filing for elective office. Maybe I'm missing something somewhere, but I see nothing that would have an Independent candidate disclose a political affiliation.

SECTION 3.2 FILING FOR OFFICE--INDEPENDENT CANDIDATES.
Any person who desires to be an independent candidate for a city office shall file with the Election Board of Tulsa County or its successor a Declaration of Candidacy which shall state: A. The name and residence street address of the person as it appears on the voter registration records; and B. The name of the office sought. The Declaration of Candidacy of the independent candidate shall have attached a supporting petition which shall be signed by at least three hundred (300) qualified electors from the city at large if the independent candidate seeks the office of Mayor or City Auditor or from the election district if the independent candidate seeks the office of Councilor from an election district.
Let's add, "or lack thereof" to what I said. :)
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Post by Guest »

Less wind than usual from a windbag but the clock might have had something to do with that.

Bush seems not to be able to stand back and see what is really going on ...sooo endless splattering on Kerry - which is likely to elect the Democrat by making his name the first thing people think of when asked about the election.

But OTOH wasn't that always the way it worked? after all if you can't name the Republican candidate but you can't stop saying Kerry then who else is there to vote for?

Still we have some more debates and the last one is the only one people will remember.
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Post by Dale »

Hi.

Let's try to continue to keep this thread about the debates proper. I think we have all benefited from having the Political Megathread.

Dale
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Post by Walden »

DaleWisely wrote:Hi.

Let's try to continue to keep this thread about the debates proper. I think we have all benefited from having the Political Megathread.

Dale
When I was in high school I was in the speech club (no, I wasn't the speech club type... at all) for a semester, and we had Lincoln-Douglas debates. Neither participant was to look at the other when speaking, nor was he permitted to address the opponent. There were tight rules, but there was also a level of spontaneity that made it interesting.

I was talking to a relative, who was a former Democrat but turned Republican (which is probably the case with the majority of Oklahoma Republicans), and he was all up in arms over the networks violating the contract (he was not influenced by talk radio or Fox News, as he receives neither) in showing the reactions of the other candidate (guess which one), while one was talking.
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Post by OutOfBreath »

The best line I heard came after the debate. The next morning the local radio station was doing "man in the street" and after one guy said something like, "it didn't change my opinion," the eager-to-change-the-world reporter jumped on him with something like, "well, you know that an MSNBC poll reports that many people think Kerry did a very good job of clarifying his position" - I spit coffee through my nose when the man in the street replied something like, "He's never had a problem stating his position, he's had a problem standing on it - heck, we knew he was the more accomplished liar before the debate!"
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Post by glauber »

I saw the debate. I think Kerry did well and it was refreshing to not hear the word lockbox. Bush did well too; his smirking registers very well with his constituency. I bet he has a smirking coach to prepare for these debates.

It was interesting to see them side by side, because Kerry is a lot taller than Bush, so to compensate, they had to set Bush's podium higher. Weird the stuff that only becomes interesting when it's on TV.

In the end, they only disagreed in one thing: Kerry thinks the most important challenge in today's word is nuclear proliferation. Bush thinks it's nucular proliferation, instead.
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Post by Jack »

glauber wrote:I saw the debate. I think Kerry did well and it was refreshing to not hear the word lockbox. Bush did well too; his smirking registers very well with his constituency. I bet he has a smirking coach to prepare for these debates.

It was interesting to see them side by side, because Kerry is a lot taller than Bush, so to compensate, they had to set Bush's podium higher. Weird the stuff that only becomes interesting when it's on TV.

In the end, they only disagreed in one thing: Kerry thinks the most important challenge in today's word is nuclear proliferation. Bush thinks it's nucular proliferation, instead.
Glauber, I have missed you so! :)
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Post by cowtime »

glauber wrote:I saw the debate. I think Kerry did well and it was refreshing to not hear the word lockbox. Bush did well too; his smirking registers very well with his constituency. I bet he has a smirking coach to prepare for these debates.

It was interesting to see them side by side, because Kerry is a lot taller than Bush, so to compensate, they had to set Bush's podium higher. Weird the stuff that only becomes interesting when it's on TV.

In the end, they only disagreed in one thing: Kerry thinks the most important challenge in today's word is nuclear proliferation. Bush thinks it's nucular proliferation, instead.
Good to see you've survived your vacation, we've missed your posts here. :sniffle:

I found it to be very entertaining watching how often they had to adjust the camera to be sure to keep the "two heads" at the same height.
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Post by rodfish »

The more intelligent of our membership stay out of the political mine field :)[/quote]

And by your participation in the "political mine field" you are indicating that you are.....? :D
(Maybe we should take a "little" poll.)
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Post by Lorenzo »

Anyone Image of Kerry apparently breaking the rules of the contract and pulling a cheat sheet out of his pocket while his back was to the audience? He's got that silly grin like "hey George, I'm smiling...don't think about my hands right now" video

Section 5, pages 4-5 of the 32 page binding "Memorandum of Understanding" states:
"No props, notes, charts, diagrams, or other writings or other tangible things may be brought into the debate by either candidate.... Each candidate must submit to the staff of the Commission prior to the debate all such paper and any pens or pencils with which a candidate may wish to take notes during the debate, and the staff or commission will place such paper, pens and pencils on the podium..."

Ralph Nader knows what sleeze balls these guys are. He use to hang around with them.
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