Couple of things:
1. The 2 most interesting, well informed, knowledgeable and honest regular contributors to the C&F forum are Loren and Jessie. Don't argue this point; you'll just be showing us how new or ignorant or both you are.
2. Both Jessie and Loren have left themselves open to criticism from the new and the ignorant, and unfortunately, both have gotten it. Some of Jessie's critics have been on the board for as long as a whopping 6 weeks!
3. Both Jessie and Loren have (at times) been thin-skinned about that criticism.
4. Typical newbie post: "Hi! I'm new here. I bought a Guinness whistle and I think it's the greatest whistle ever. Everyone on this board is so nice. I've been playing for 6 weeks. I can play 3 Blind Mice, Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and the first 3 bars of that song from Titanic. So my question is, should I buy on O'Riordan or save my money for an 8 key Olwell flute? What do you guys think of these instruments? What about Copelands, Sindts, Burkes and Overtons? Thanks!"
Typical Jessie reply: "We've discussed all these whistles on the board many times. Run a search on the previous posts."
Newbie's next post: "Wow, you are rude, mean and horrible! There is no place for you on a nice, civilized message board like this. I'm going to continue posting replies to questions I don't even understand, and opinions on whistles I've never heard of, but you should stop sharing your intelligent comments because you weren't nice to me."
Now don't get me wrong - I like giving advice to newbies, when it concerns something I actually know something about. Well, not me, A. Lee Ass, but the other me, who posts under the other pseudonym. So keep asking those dumb questions and I'll keep answering them, but for God's sake, before you decide to criticize someone, do a little research, know a little history. There are people around here who have been sharing their experience and knowledge with us, and helping us avoid getting ripped off, since before the first time you rented the videotape of Riverdance. If they haven't always been patient, kind, or politically correct, too bad! Go waste a couple of day's pay on a piece of crap whistle because you don't like the way Loren said something about the maker and so won't to his advice! Good thinking! Then refuse to tell the rest of us that you bought a piece of crap that we should avoid. You're now a real, nice, civilized contributor to this board.
5. The reasons I post under this name: Under my other name, I don't get involved in controversies. Well, I'll post my honest opinion of an instrument, but not of an off-topic thread. I try to be helpful, and I don't overstep the bounds of my (limited) expertise. I ask questions or advice only after doing my own homework. So why have I now created this alter ego? Well, I just got sick of the stupidity of some of the posts, and I snapped, but I'm not willing to surrender the image that exists of the other me. I also don't feel like defending myself against the morons. So Loren, it's perfectly ok to call me a coward. I am a coward.
6. Speaking of Loren, I deeply apologize if I have offended Loren. That was never my intent. I respect and admire Loren. I succumbed to the temptation of trying to get him to rise to my obvious bait. In that respect, I'm worse than all the newbies I'm chastising.
7. Finally, this really is Mr. A. Lee Ass's final post. His alter ego is going to be somewhat more courageous, though he'll probably still stay out of OT controversies. Maybe he'll just stop reading them.
Farewell!
A. Lee Ass
P.S. Happy St. Patrick's Day.
edited to make better sense and correct grammatical errors.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: A. Lee Ass on 2002-03-15 22:18 ]</font>
This is NOT a Troll!
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Ahh Mr. Ass,
I love you and hate you all at the same time - as if I didn't know who you really are, and of course I do.
You know, it's sort of funny, everyone is now making a big deal about the "Oldtimers" being fed up with the newbies and not wanting to be bothered with them any more - giving the impression that this is the root of the problem. Well, I can assure you it's not about that.
Even though I said I was burnt on dealing with "Newbie" questions a while back, that wasn't really the main thing. And, having spoken to Jessie off board, I feel confident saying that's not the main issue for her either.
What it's really about (Which you sort of touched on A. Lee) is that so many people here have become so incredibly intolerant. Oh sure, some will say "Ha! Look who's talking about intolerance!", but I tell you it's a matter of which came first the chicken or the egg. You see, this is how it started, at least for me:
I used to take the time, quite a bit of time in fact, to write reviews of whistles and CD's, as well as answer a TON of questions on and off the board. I got nothing (positive) from this other than the relatively occasional "Thank you", and the personal satisfaction of knowing I was helping save people the money and frustration I suffered starting out.
Now as time went on, and I gave my honest and not too terribly abrasive reviews, I started taking flak from people who were intolerant of hearing anything negative about a given whistle maker, vendor or band. I started getting very unpleasant e-mail from certain whistle makers who were pissed when I didn't give their whistles the highest marks. Worse yet I was insulted and set upon by people who felt I shouldn't be critical of whistle smiths or vendors.
Now, as people became nasty with me, I felt inclined to respond in kind - You see I grew up on the streets of Philadelphia where you learn early on not to take crap from anyone, lest you end up getting your ass kicked on a daily basis. The rule of survival is: Be polite until someone takes a swing at you and then, if someone blackens your eye, you break their nose. If someone breaks your nose, you knock out a couple of teeth, and so on. This may seem very crude and childish to those of you who haven't grown up in a similar environment, but anyone who's had to try to survive in such conditions will understand. It's not so different here.
At any rate, people on this message board have become more and more intolerant of anything that isn't happy, smiley, hugs and kisses. Those same people have time and again attacked people like Jessie and myself, and over time we've become less tolerant of the abuse. Finally I've reached the point where I have no tolerance for anyone's crap. I've gotten to the point where I've had enough of people's BS and I'll just blast anyone who gets in my way, I'm just that fed up with the intolerance of others.
Fact is, I've contributed unselfishly here for more years than most people registered to this message board have been playing whistle. I've saved many people here money, heartache and frustration by answering questions and writing reviews on and off the message board. I've donated a HUGE amount of my time helping people on this message board and I've earned the right to say a few words now and then without having someone who's been on the board for 6 weeks call me names. I've earned the right to slam anyone who calls me names, lies about me, or attacks me because simply because they don't like the fact that I express an honest opinion.
I don't think I'm better than anyone else here. I do however think that just like a session, those people who have shown up, contributed consistently, kept things going over the years, and have generally supported the cause, deserve a little freaking courtesy and extra tolerance from those who have just walked in off the street and don't know a jig from a reel. Even if you are some sort of expert, when you walk in on a session where you're new, you've got no business insulting the regulars and trying to dictate etiquette. Hell, many of you who are bitching and moaning right now will be long gone while the rest of us have to live with this community for years to come.
I'm also not going to take any S**t from those people who pop up only now and again to call me or other regular contributors names. Hey, if you don't post here on a regular basis, don't freakin gripe when someone says something you don't like - You don't get a say at how a session is going to run when you show up once every two months and then you simply bitch.
I often hear people around here crying about people like Jessie and me being "Disrespectful" of others. Respect is earned: Post under your own name, contribute something other than off-topic drivel for an extended period of time, do your time helping out the newbies (sort of hard to do when you are a newbie yourself, isn't it?), and don't be so quick to rag on those who have done all of these things already, perhaps then you will earn some respect from the "Session Regulars" who've kept this thing going long enough for you to be here now enjoying it. Is this too much to ask? Is it so different from what is expected in other areas of life?
IMO, The issue isn't newbie questions and a related burnout, the issue is the ongoing lack of tolerance for the expression of opposing viewpoints: John thinks Jessie should leave because he doesn't like the way she expresses herself, Bloomfield (a usually reasonable individual) wants John's words deleted because they don't meet his approval. Oh, my goodness! What in the world??!? Where do you guys get off with that crap? Who died and made you the two King Freak'in Midases of the message board? You see what I mean?
Loren
I love you and hate you all at the same time - as if I didn't know who you really are, and of course I do.
You know, it's sort of funny, everyone is now making a big deal about the "Oldtimers" being fed up with the newbies and not wanting to be bothered with them any more - giving the impression that this is the root of the problem. Well, I can assure you it's not about that.
Even though I said I was burnt on dealing with "Newbie" questions a while back, that wasn't really the main thing. And, having spoken to Jessie off board, I feel confident saying that's not the main issue for her either.
What it's really about (Which you sort of touched on A. Lee) is that so many people here have become so incredibly intolerant. Oh sure, some will say "Ha! Look who's talking about intolerance!", but I tell you it's a matter of which came first the chicken or the egg. You see, this is how it started, at least for me:
I used to take the time, quite a bit of time in fact, to write reviews of whistles and CD's, as well as answer a TON of questions on and off the board. I got nothing (positive) from this other than the relatively occasional "Thank you", and the personal satisfaction of knowing I was helping save people the money and frustration I suffered starting out.
Now as time went on, and I gave my honest and not too terribly abrasive reviews, I started taking flak from people who were intolerant of hearing anything negative about a given whistle maker, vendor or band. I started getting very unpleasant e-mail from certain whistle makers who were pissed when I didn't give their whistles the highest marks. Worse yet I was insulted and set upon by people who felt I shouldn't be critical of whistle smiths or vendors.
Now, as people became nasty with me, I felt inclined to respond in kind - You see I grew up on the streets of Philadelphia where you learn early on not to take crap from anyone, lest you end up getting your ass kicked on a daily basis. The rule of survival is: Be polite until someone takes a swing at you and then, if someone blackens your eye, you break their nose. If someone breaks your nose, you knock out a couple of teeth, and so on. This may seem very crude and childish to those of you who haven't grown up in a similar environment, but anyone who's had to try to survive in such conditions will understand. It's not so different here.
At any rate, people on this message board have become more and more intolerant of anything that isn't happy, smiley, hugs and kisses. Those same people have time and again attacked people like Jessie and myself, and over time we've become less tolerant of the abuse. Finally I've reached the point where I have no tolerance for anyone's crap. I've gotten to the point where I've had enough of people's BS and I'll just blast anyone who gets in my way, I'm just that fed up with the intolerance of others.
Fact is, I've contributed unselfishly here for more years than most people registered to this message board have been playing whistle. I've saved many people here money, heartache and frustration by answering questions and writing reviews on and off the message board. I've donated a HUGE amount of my time helping people on this message board and I've earned the right to say a few words now and then without having someone who's been on the board for 6 weeks call me names. I've earned the right to slam anyone who calls me names, lies about me, or attacks me because simply because they don't like the fact that I express an honest opinion.
I don't think I'm better than anyone else here. I do however think that just like a session, those people who have shown up, contributed consistently, kept things going over the years, and have generally supported the cause, deserve a little freaking courtesy and extra tolerance from those who have just walked in off the street and don't know a jig from a reel. Even if you are some sort of expert, when you walk in on a session where you're new, you've got no business insulting the regulars and trying to dictate etiquette. Hell, many of you who are bitching and moaning right now will be long gone while the rest of us have to live with this community for years to come.
I'm also not going to take any S**t from those people who pop up only now and again to call me or other regular contributors names. Hey, if you don't post here on a regular basis, don't freakin gripe when someone says something you don't like - You don't get a say at how a session is going to run when you show up once every two months and then you simply bitch.
I often hear people around here crying about people like Jessie and me being "Disrespectful" of others. Respect is earned: Post under your own name, contribute something other than off-topic drivel for an extended period of time, do your time helping out the newbies (sort of hard to do when you are a newbie yourself, isn't it?), and don't be so quick to rag on those who have done all of these things already, perhaps then you will earn some respect from the "Session Regulars" who've kept this thing going long enough for you to be here now enjoying it. Is this too much to ask? Is it so different from what is expected in other areas of life?
IMO, The issue isn't newbie questions and a related burnout, the issue is the ongoing lack of tolerance for the expression of opposing viewpoints: John thinks Jessie should leave because he doesn't like the way she expresses herself, Bloomfield (a usually reasonable individual) wants John's words deleted because they don't meet his approval. Oh, my goodness! What in the world??!? Where do you guys get off with that crap? Who died and made you the two King Freak'in Midases of the message board? You see what I mean?
Loren
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Cayden
You know guys, I too am taking a bit of a rest from the ongoing shouting matches here. And I too think it’s a shame that regular contributors to this board like Loren and Whistlepeg, are shying away from it. Iam even sorry to see Jessie go allthough over the past six months I have seen little else beyond hee hee and outbursts of bitchyness from her. I think a lot of people have something to contribute but maybe we all should also reflect on the fact that this board is only a tiny tiny fraction of what is in fact going on out there in the world of (Irish or whistle or whatever suits you) music.
Over the years I have met a few people outside this board, who were and are musicians of a stature that is beyond the imagination of many of you out there. Yet most of you will never have heard of them. People who were making a great and worthwhile effort helping newcomers along, freely passing on what was passed on to them before. I personally was helped along by Chris Langan, Martin Rochford, Junior Crehan and many many others. They didn’t care who I was, where I was from or with how little I set out. They helped me along and gave freely whenever I was ready for it. They gave me their respect for my making the effort to learn and silently earned mine for their effort.
I know many that are doing the same today, some have been mentioned here: Debbie Quigley, Brid Donohue, Ann Sheehy, they are all truly great whistleplayers and they all teach and inspire people to play whistles, to express themselves through the music. They contribute something that is well beyond the scope and scale of anything going on on this board.
Yet, despite the valuable contributions and efforts these people were and are making, I have never ever heard any of them ever express the notion they were better or more worthy than others, that others should deserve to be in their presence. That they were the most interesting and valuable contributors to anything at all (while if anybody ever was, they were just that very thing). Being humble and respectfull (even while being fully aware of the value of their own achievements)is part of the inspiration they give others and it would be fitting for all of us to reflect on that. Though some of us should reflect a bit harder.
Play the tunes, tell the story
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-03-16 09:34 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-03-16 15:55 ]</font>
Over the years I have met a few people outside this board, who were and are musicians of a stature that is beyond the imagination of many of you out there. Yet most of you will never have heard of them. People who were making a great and worthwhile effort helping newcomers along, freely passing on what was passed on to them before. I personally was helped along by Chris Langan, Martin Rochford, Junior Crehan and many many others. They didn’t care who I was, where I was from or with how little I set out. They helped me along and gave freely whenever I was ready for it. They gave me their respect for my making the effort to learn and silently earned mine for their effort.
I know many that are doing the same today, some have been mentioned here: Debbie Quigley, Brid Donohue, Ann Sheehy, they are all truly great whistleplayers and they all teach and inspire people to play whistles, to express themselves through the music. They contribute something that is well beyond the scope and scale of anything going on on this board.
Yet, despite the valuable contributions and efforts these people were and are making, I have never ever heard any of them ever express the notion they were better or more worthy than others, that others should deserve to be in their presence. That they were the most interesting and valuable contributors to anything at all (while if anybody ever was, they were just that very thing). Being humble and respectfull (even while being fully aware of the value of their own achievements)is part of the inspiration they give others and it would be fitting for all of us to reflect on that. Though some of us should reflect a bit harder.
Play the tunes, tell the story
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-03-16 09:34 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-03-16 15:55 ]</font>
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Chuck_Clark
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Loren
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And get yourself free - Location: Loren has left the building.
Hmm Mike,On 2002-03-16 04:53, mike.r wrote:
Nice to see you back JessieK,if only for a moment...look forward to your comeback.Peace,Mike
As the author of the post in question (rather than Jessie K.) should I take that as an attempted insult (thus proving at least one of my points)? Or did you really just misread the the post's author line?
Loren
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stimps
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On 2002-03-16 12:22, Loren wrote:
Hmm Mike,
As the author of the post in question (rather than Jessie K.) should I take that as an attempted insult (thus proving at least one of my points)? Or did you really just misread the the post's author line?
Loren:
You know what you *should* do. You should go have a cuppa, play a tune, and once you don't feel mad, then come back and assume the best of the guy.
I was going to quote another post you made, hold on... hrm...
Ok, this is NOT TO BE DIRECTED AS A CRITICISM OF LOREN, it's just something he and other people have sort of skirted around, and I think it needs to be mentioned:
The problem here is that there are people who read the board every single day (like me for instance) but who don't say much on a regular basis (also like me). From looking at the Views section of the pages, compared with the replies section, I'd have to assume that I'm actually in the majority here. So, while it's easy to say people just "pop up" and don't participate, you just don't know. I send mail to people all the time about whistley things. I've helped rich set up the chat channel for C&F. I have to assume that other lurkers are doing similar things even though they're not saying a lot.Loren sez:
I'm also not going to take any S**t from those people who pop up only now and again to call me or other regular contributors names. Hey, if you don't post here on a regular basis, don't freakin gripe when someone says something you don't like - You don't get a say at how a session is going to run when you show up once every two months and then you simply bitch.
Anyway -- we all participate differently -- just because it's not always visible, doesn't mean it's not important. How loudly or often you speak shouldn't determine whether your voice is heard.
stimps
edited to fix the screwed up quoting again.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: stimps on 2002-03-16 13:35 ]</font>
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Bloomfield
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stimps,
on that last point: I basically agree with you. Those who read and don't post much have an equal right to participate and all that. But on the other hand, I do see Loren's point here. He didn't say it, but he was refering specifically to Claudine, I think. I don't recall seeing a whistle-related post or question from her, but also haven't paid particular attention or done a search. So, she has a problem with Loren & Jessie, fine, she can say so, she is entitle to her opinion and its expression. And yet, it's one thing to say, "hey I don't post much, but I've been lurking. I have been reading all this crap and I have agree that $this_is_the_case." It is another thing to just post a one-liner out of left-field that says "XYZ, you're a dolt." I can't describe it very well, it's more like a feel or style thing. You say things differently to people you have a relationship with than you do to total strangers. I am tempted to say that the right to make that kind of a post has to be earned by participation, but hesitate because newbies are welcome and don't have to wait before posting.
_________________
/bloomfield
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-03-16 13:46 ]</font>
on that last point: I basically agree with you. Those who read and don't post much have an equal right to participate and all that. But on the other hand, I do see Loren's point here. He didn't say it, but he was refering specifically to Claudine, I think. I don't recall seeing a whistle-related post or question from her, but also haven't paid particular attention or done a search. So, she has a problem with Loren & Jessie, fine, she can say so, she is entitle to her opinion and its expression. And yet, it's one thing to say, "hey I don't post much, but I've been lurking. I have been reading all this crap and I have agree that $this_is_the_case." It is another thing to just post a one-liner out of left-field that says "XYZ, you're a dolt." I can't describe it very well, it's more like a feel or style thing. You say things differently to people you have a relationship with than you do to total strangers. I am tempted to say that the right to make that kind of a post has to be earned by participation, but hesitate because newbies are welcome and don't have to wait before posting.
_________________
/bloomfield
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-03-16 13:46 ]</font>
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Redding
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Well, I'm neither an old-timer nor a newbie, and like Loren I'm from Philadelphia and used to beating people up all the time . . .
I don't always agree with Loren or Jessie, but I feel their input is invaluable. I think that those individuals who consider their posts vituperative can just -- hey! imagine this! -- NOT READ THEM.
I know, Loren, that I am guilty of telling you to chill on various occasions. Please don't construe that as me telling you to shut up. What it means is: Please stop shouting! Turn the volume down, and you'll be easier to listen to.
As a magazine critic, I learned that I had to have a thick skin when dealing with people who didn't like my reviews. Usually I would say, Sorry, but that's my opinion, and I stand by my review. Loren, I think you should do the same. Not every whiney comment from someone else merits a reply from you.
Finally, a note about pseudonyms: be courageous! Put your name out there! Don't be afraid to let people know you're disgruntled!
Okay, I'm starting to sound like Stuart Smiley on Daily Affirmations. I'll shut up now.
Cheers,
Judith Redding
I don't always agree with Loren or Jessie, but I feel their input is invaluable. I think that those individuals who consider their posts vituperative can just -- hey! imagine this! -- NOT READ THEM.
I know, Loren, that I am guilty of telling you to chill on various occasions. Please don't construe that as me telling you to shut up. What it means is: Please stop shouting! Turn the volume down, and you'll be easier to listen to.
As a magazine critic, I learned that I had to have a thick skin when dealing with people who didn't like my reviews. Usually I would say, Sorry, but that's my opinion, and I stand by my review. Loren, I think you should do the same. Not every whiney comment from someone else merits a reply from you.
Finally, a note about pseudonyms: be courageous! Put your name out there! Don't be afraid to let people know you're disgruntled!
Okay, I'm starting to sound like Stuart Smiley on Daily Affirmations. I'll shut up now.
Cheers,
Judith Redding
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stimps
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Excellent point. I wasn't really thinking in terms of that. I agree, sniping is a different matter altogether. People who jump up and say a crappy thing out of the blue with no backup (and yes, I think this leaves room for people saying crappy things that are merited --On 2002-03-16 13:43, Bloomfield wrote:
It is another thing to just post a one-liner out of left-field that says "XYZ, you're a dolt." I can't describe it very well, it's more like a feel or style thing. You say things differently to people you have a relationship with than you do to total strangers.
) should be discouraged. The way that's done on Usenet is to just ignore them, and freeze them out. I think perhaps that's the best solution. As Judith wisely says in the previous post, one needs not pipe up every time someone says something whiny to you. Consider the source -- consider if they really matter to you.stimps
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Loren
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You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free - Location: Loren has left the building.
Re: Mike's post and Stimps comments on that:
You see Stimps, here we go again with the intolerance - you're suggesting I should communicate differently, in a way that you would prefer because you don't like my style. The reason I asked the question of mike was that I seem to remember him having something sarcastic and not particularly nice to say about Jessie (and/or me) recently. I could have asked it in a more touchy feely, not likely to offend anyone sort of way, but that's not how I communicate. Why can't you just accept that?
Re: Stimps' and Bloomfield's comments about "lurkers rights" if you will - I'll use the session analogy again:
The musicians who show-up on a regular basis and contribute by playing the music are the reason the session exists. Many more people may come to the pub to listen to the music, but those who simply listen (especially if they never even clap or show appreciation in some accepted way), or ask questions, have little right to gripe about the tune selection on a given night. Nor do they get any imput regarding any political issues (or infighting) that come up in a session - For example who's playing to loud, who's tempo is off, who needs to retune, who is no longer welcome as a player because they cause too many problems etc. - these are issues to be decided (or argued about) by the musicians and the pub owner/manager (Dale and Rich in our case), not the audience.
Remember: We're talking about unpaid musicians (unless you count the free Guiness) in a public setting, not professionals who's job is to satisfy the listener. Ditto with the message board, those of us who contribute do so without remuneration, so we owe little to lurkers who take but never give. Not that there's anything wrong with simply dropping by to gain information, that's fine and welcome: Even at a session, those who aren't playing are welcome to ask questions (Politely), however it would never be tolerated if these same people walked up between tunes and started telling the session musicians that the tunes were played poorly, or not in the proper style, or heaven forbid someone from the back of the pub should simply jump up hurl an insult at a musician or two every now and again! My guess is that person would quickly find him or herself out on the street, perhaps with a fat lip for their trouble.
Seems to me entirely reasonable that the same should hold true for our little session here, if you see what I'm saying.
Let me use another example: I'm an avid Mountain Biker. Now while we don't have any mountains here in Florida, we do have lots of trails that have been cut through the woods by mountain bikers (with the blessing of the divisions of forestry, parks and recreation, and on public lands designated for such purposes), for mountain bikers.
Cutting these trails through the woods here in Florida is back breaking work - The underbrush and roots here are unbelieveable. These trails also have to be maintained: Trash picked up, eroded soil replaced, signs repaired/replaced, etc. The people who do this work are all volunteers, and if it weren't for them, the rest of us wouldn't have any trails to ride.
Now, these kind and hearty folks who cut and maintain our trails are quite happy that people who don't contribute to the effort will also be able to enjoy the fruits of this labor of love, all they ask in return is that those who don't contribute at least don't trash the trails or the associated the wildernesss.
There is one other unwritten but well understood rule: If you aren't willing to help cut or maintain the trails, or find some other way to contribute, then don't complain about the trails or their condition, certainly don't insult those who built and maintain the trails, for without them, you'd have nowhere to ride: The woods will always be there to quickly reclaim (overgrow) the trails should the job of trail maintenance become too frustrating and thankless a job for the volunteers. Seems fair enough, doesn't it?
So again I ask: Aren't these same expectations reasonable and practically universal? Why should it be different here on this message board? Anyone?
BTW, I was not only referring to Claudine; I could name quite a few people who have behaved similarly in recent months, quite a few people came out of the woodwork to take pot shots at me during the "Sickening" threads early days for example. Ditto with folks attacking Jessie over the years. I really don't want to get into naming names because we have enough flame wars going on at the moment.
Judith,
I see your point about taking the flak, however the difference is that you are a Professional critic, so taking heat is a given part of the job right, part of the job description in essence, so it's one of the understood stresses that you get paid for in a sense. Again, like being a professional musican or comic, you have to develop a thick skin and learn to take the heckling. Being uncompensated for my efforts here (not a complaint mind you) I feel no need to put up with the BS. Volunteers in (in most fields) generally don't tend to take much crap before they snap back or quit doing the work, right?
Or, to put it another way: When you're at work you often have to endure things that you would never tolerate in your personal life. This is a (small) part of my personal life, so I won't sit quietly while being attacked or insulted - Hey, if someone wants to take a swing at me, fine - as Mills Lane would say: "Let's get it on!"
I can certainly take it as well as I can dish it out, the only time I cry foul is when I fight back and my posts get deleted.
One final thing I wanted to mention in this post: I did appreciate Mr. Ass's post that started this thread, I think he made valid points.
Loren
You see Stimps, here we go again with the intolerance - you're suggesting I should communicate differently, in a way that you would prefer because you don't like my style. The reason I asked the question of mike was that I seem to remember him having something sarcastic and not particularly nice to say about Jessie (and/or me) recently. I could have asked it in a more touchy feely, not likely to offend anyone sort of way, but that's not how I communicate. Why can't you just accept that?
Re: Stimps' and Bloomfield's comments about "lurkers rights" if you will - I'll use the session analogy again:
The musicians who show-up on a regular basis and contribute by playing the music are the reason the session exists. Many more people may come to the pub to listen to the music, but those who simply listen (especially if they never even clap or show appreciation in some accepted way), or ask questions, have little right to gripe about the tune selection on a given night. Nor do they get any imput regarding any political issues (or infighting) that come up in a session - For example who's playing to loud, who's tempo is off, who needs to retune, who is no longer welcome as a player because they cause too many problems etc. - these are issues to be decided (or argued about) by the musicians and the pub owner/manager (Dale and Rich in our case), not the audience.
Remember: We're talking about unpaid musicians (unless you count the free Guiness) in a public setting, not professionals who's job is to satisfy the listener. Ditto with the message board, those of us who contribute do so without remuneration, so we owe little to lurkers who take but never give. Not that there's anything wrong with simply dropping by to gain information, that's fine and welcome: Even at a session, those who aren't playing are welcome to ask questions (Politely), however it would never be tolerated if these same people walked up between tunes and started telling the session musicians that the tunes were played poorly, or not in the proper style, or heaven forbid someone from the back of the pub should simply jump up hurl an insult at a musician or two every now and again! My guess is that person would quickly find him or herself out on the street, perhaps with a fat lip for their trouble.
Seems to me entirely reasonable that the same should hold true for our little session here, if you see what I'm saying.
Let me use another example: I'm an avid Mountain Biker. Now while we don't have any mountains here in Florida, we do have lots of trails that have been cut through the woods by mountain bikers (with the blessing of the divisions of forestry, parks and recreation, and on public lands designated for such purposes), for mountain bikers.
Cutting these trails through the woods here in Florida is back breaking work - The underbrush and roots here are unbelieveable. These trails also have to be maintained: Trash picked up, eroded soil replaced, signs repaired/replaced, etc. The people who do this work are all volunteers, and if it weren't for them, the rest of us wouldn't have any trails to ride.
Now, these kind and hearty folks who cut and maintain our trails are quite happy that people who don't contribute to the effort will also be able to enjoy the fruits of this labor of love, all they ask in return is that those who don't contribute at least don't trash the trails or the associated the wildernesss.
There is one other unwritten but well understood rule: If you aren't willing to help cut or maintain the trails, or find some other way to contribute, then don't complain about the trails or their condition, certainly don't insult those who built and maintain the trails, for without them, you'd have nowhere to ride: The woods will always be there to quickly reclaim (overgrow) the trails should the job of trail maintenance become too frustrating and thankless a job for the volunteers. Seems fair enough, doesn't it?
So again I ask: Aren't these same expectations reasonable and practically universal? Why should it be different here on this message board? Anyone?
BTW, I was not only referring to Claudine; I could name quite a few people who have behaved similarly in recent months, quite a few people came out of the woodwork to take pot shots at me during the "Sickening" threads early days for example. Ditto with folks attacking Jessie over the years. I really don't want to get into naming names because we have enough flame wars going on at the moment.
Judith,
I see your point about taking the flak, however the difference is that you are a Professional critic, so taking heat is a given part of the job right, part of the job description in essence, so it's one of the understood stresses that you get paid for in a sense. Again, like being a professional musican or comic, you have to develop a thick skin and learn to take the heckling. Being uncompensated for my efforts here (not a complaint mind you) I feel no need to put up with the BS. Volunteers in (in most fields) generally don't tend to take much crap before they snap back or quit doing the work, right?
Or, to put it another way: When you're at work you often have to endure things that you would never tolerate in your personal life. This is a (small) part of my personal life, so I won't sit quietly while being attacked or insulted - Hey, if someone wants to take a swing at me, fine - as Mills Lane would say: "Let's get it on!"
I can certainly take it as well as I can dish it out, the only time I cry foul is when I fight back and my posts get deleted.
One final thing I wanted to mention in this post: I did appreciate Mr. Ass's post that started this thread, I think he made valid points.
Loren
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chas
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I want to point out something else in response to what Bloomfield and stimps have said. Anyone who reads the board regularly for any period of time knows what the regular contributors are like. Thus, if someone reacts with horror at something that Loren or Jessie or some other regular contributor has said, he either really hasn't read the board much, is having a bad day (ie, has seen the same thing often and hasn't reacted), or is really slow to catch on.
Charlie
Charlie
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Loren
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- Tell us something.: You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free - Location: Loren has left the building.
Excellent point Charlie.
Loren
P.S. Stimps, I wasn't mad at Mike, even if his intent was to insult me, these things don't surprise or anger me much any more, I've come to expect it. Doesn't mean I'm going to let certain comments go unanswered though, and in this case I thought I'd ask mike to clarify, so I know for sure what his intent was.
By the way, I don't react to _everything_, as I mentioned already, I didn't respond at all to Claudine's initial swipe (taken out of the blue) at me. Although in retrospect, maybe I should have immediately torn her to shreds, perhaps then she wouldn't have been bold enough to attack Jessie in the same way within the same week.....
Loren
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2002-03-16 19:07 ]</font>
Loren
P.S. Stimps, I wasn't mad at Mike, even if his intent was to insult me, these things don't surprise or anger me much any more, I've come to expect it. Doesn't mean I'm going to let certain comments go unanswered though, and in this case I thought I'd ask mike to clarify, so I know for sure what his intent was.
By the way, I don't react to _everything_, as I mentioned already, I didn't respond at all to Claudine's initial swipe (taken out of the blue) at me. Although in retrospect, maybe I should have immediately torn her to shreds, perhaps then she wouldn't have been bold enough to attack Jessie in the same way within the same week.....
Loren
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2002-03-16 19:07 ]</font>