Elevated Thought

[No E]

I spoke to Liam O'Flynn briefly after a concert in Flagstaff, Arizona (around 7,000 ft.). He said that noticed that even his whistles acted differently at that altitude. The main problem was (lack of) humidity--17%!-- but he said the pipes were definately acting oddly. He played some interesting and ingenious variations to avoid notes that were giving him trouble (back D, E). It appeared so effortless and seemless that a non-piper would never have guessed he was having trouble. Mr. O'Flynn is a consumate musician and performer (and quite the gentleman to waste his time talking to the likes of me).

No E

[djm]

Lorenzo, Larry, that's exactly the type of input I was interested in. Thanks very much.

Agree about Mr. O'Flynn. His work gets dumped on a lot because he tends to favour new age-y accompaniement, but beneath it all is total control, skill and taste.

djm

[Brian Lee]

We have pipers out here that get on just fine. And DJM, for the record, it isn't the air *pressure*, it's the air *density* that thins the higher you go. If I read it right, this was the thrust of your original post though right? Barometric pressure and relative humidity are each independant. For my own part, I haven't seen or heard much that leads me to believe that we're on another planet as far as piping is concerned. Is it different up here? (meaning the 4,500-7,000 average range) Sure it is. But will pipes just magically stop playing in one city and then start in another because you've dropped 1,000 feet? I wouldn't bet on it. Chances are theres a different culprit at work - though what that may be can certainly vary widely.

[djm]

Briin, you're right, of course. Air density. I was simply curious about what effect it might have on the way the reed lips open and close, if more pressure from the bag/bellows was required, etc.

Thx,

djm

[Brian Lee]

Again, I don't think so. A plane will take longer to get off the ground at a higher elevation or in a high temperature (called 'density altitude') because there aren't as many air molecules in those situations to provide lift. I can see why this affects a large heavy object like an airfoil, but when you're looking at something as small as a reed, I would expect the effects, while still there, to be much smaller as well. Again, I haven't really noticed much difference at all from high to low or coast to caost.

The pressure, or rather the number of molecules of air needed to sound a reed is the same regardless of altitude I would think. It's just a matter of having to pump a little bit more air into the bag perhaps. But the same number of molecules of air will need to pass the lips to get a sound. I think you'll find a greater change in playability due to temperature and relative humidity than altitude, but every reed is different.

Have you travelled much with your set(s)? I know a lot of well know players / makers have sworn off the Rocky Mountain area because of a claim that the altitude completely wonked out their reeds. I'm not certain how much weight I would give this argument though as I've also heard that reed making is a super-art and that only very few people can do it with any success. I've made several so far, and every one - including the very first - have worked. I just am more skeptical now about these types of "piping stereotypes" like altitude, humidity and reed making etc. etc.

There usually is *some* truth to the stereotypes, but I think a lot of it gets blown WAY out of proportion. I wonder...how many pipers also fish?

[ausdag]

on another note, If you played your pipes inside a helium-filled Zeppelin, would they go squeaky like a human voice does?

[Brian Lee]

Interesting! How about in micro-gravity? Astronauts tend to go sharp too as their vocal chords aren't being pulled down by graivty anymore either!

[Royce]

The problem comes from going from low altitude to high altitude. At high altitude maybe you'd scrape differently and seat the reed out farther and because of the dryness you'd adjust/make it for local conditions, but it'll work fine when you're done. When you go from very low to very high, you probably will play higher pitched, then have to pull the reed out, and then end up with a little intonation problem or two. You could also just tape the heck out of everything and get it back in tune, but there's a change not in the reed, but the air column in the bore itself and the way it tunes/responds in "lighter" air than heavier air.

In short, a bad analogy, but one that works for the moment, is like changing from a heavy guage string on a guitar to a very light one or vice-versa. More like not only going to lighter strings, but moving the bridge as well, shortening it a bit. Only with a wind instrument, it's more like shortening or lengthening the bridle as go up and down, because the free-air resonance of the chanter changes slightly.

I'd also like a physics consultation on the notion that air pressure remains constant as you gain altitude. The thing that causes air density is the weight of the air on itself, so the reason it would be less dense at higher altitudes would be the same reason it would be under less pressure, because there is less air stacked above it, compressing it. That's what they taught me in boiler class when figuring the standing head of a pressure vessel.

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure y'all will.

I've done the thing up and down a lot on Highland pipes and smallpipes and my Zetland invention, but not uilleanns.

Royce

[Jennie]

I actually did a "research" project on this long ago in high school, my hypothesis being that heavier gases going through an instrument would produce a lower pitch than lighter gases. (I wondered why I was the one who was always flat, and whether I could attribute it to something other than an inferior embouchure.)

Unfortunately I no longer have the official results. But I bought a tank of helium and sure had a great time with my friends in the band. As I recall, the pitch did go up when we breathed the helium into our horns.

Maybe there's a graduate student out there looking for a thesis topic who could be persuaded to pursue this one.

Jennie

[The Sporting Pitchfork]

djm, this may not be what you're looking for... but Ian Mackenzie's reeds are made in Australia atop the Blue Mountains and they usually play in Miami (sea level) with the same bridal settings they came with. Also, the seasons there are reversed to Northern Hemisphere.

Aha. Now this bit is crucial: when you flush your reeds down the toilet, they go the other way around in Australia than they would in Miami.

[djm]

Aha. Now this bit is crucial: when you flush your reeds down the toilet, they go the other way around in Australia than they would in Miami.

And they don't crow - they quack!

djm

[ausdag]

djm, this may not be what you're looking for... but Ian Mackenzie's reeds are made in Australia atop the Blue Mountains and they usually play in Miami (sea level) with the same bridal settings they came with. Also, the seasons there are reversed to Northern Hemisphere.

Aha. Now this bit is crucial: when you flush your reeds down the toilet, they go the other way around in Australia than they would in Miami.

Weeel....I wouldn't call atop the Blue Mountains much of an elevation from sea level - not one that would make much difference to the pitch of pipes. Remember, what is termed a mountain here in Australia would generally be considered a mere hill in places like the US and Asia.

Cheers,

DavidG

[Joseph E. Smith]

Maybe a piper in Colorado can take a day trip to Mt. St Evans and give it the old college try? I wholeheartedly recommend that they get hammmered the night before....to aid in making it an experience of a lifetime.

[billh]

on another note, If you played your pipes inside a helium-filled Zeppelin, would they go squeaky like a human voice does?

This has been done at least twice (well, okay, without the Zeppelin); once at one of the US tionols (with a helium tank), and once in Belfast (with helium balloons). I believe a concert D set rose to about B above D, IIRC. Somewhere I have a recording of "boil the breakfast early" played in this way.... sorry, can't find it ATM. It sounded as wonderful and awful as you imagine

- Bill

[billh]

BTW I once played a sessiun at 40,000 feet. The reeds were unhappy, the tuning was "woejus", but the pipes did play. I expect the humidity was approximately 0% as well.