It's time for me to become a vegetarian again

[Nanohedron]

As a long-time ethical vegetarian, I can tell you that, for most of us, it comes down to doing what you can. I can't keep from inhaling the particulates from the hamburger joint down the street, but I can choose not to buy a hamburger. I can't change the fact that animal products are used in the production of camera film, but I can choose to use a digital camera.

I think that, in the religions (mentioned by Nano) that make a big deal out of ritual purity, choice is of some importance but of much less importance than this. If you find yourself in an impure state, you are impure. Intent might have had little or nothing to do with it.

These religions have rituals of purification so you can return to a state of purity by performing those rituals.

It's a question that very much interests me why some cultures, religions and personalitites are attracted by very rigid notions of ritual purity and others are not. The abominations of Leviticus do not seem to be dictated by considerations either by a concern for human health or by a concern to avoid harming sentient beings. The best writings I know of on this subject are by Mary Douglas.

In reference to the sentence highlighted in red: apparently the role of intent is subject to interpretation sometimes, even among the conservative and devout. There is a very large Somali community in the Twin Cities, some of who work within the food industry. The handling of pork, even with latex gloves, has been shown to be a matter of personal conviction to the Somalis. An account related to me spoke of both refusal and willingness, depending on the case, to handle what would be an abomination to observant Muslims. The willing parties cited the gloves as being sufficient to ward off ritual contamination, and they indicated a certain amusement at those choosing to err on the side of caution. The other camp were unbending in maintaining that any handling at all was unacceptable, and considered the handlers to be basically Muslims of convenience. Understandably there were some glitches in some prep kitchens' proceedings because of all this.

I am unaware if the local mullahs have issued a ruling to resolve this matter.

[Wombat]

Intent is always a factor I suppose although how much of a factor depends. What I was getting at was that slipping up unintentionally does not leave one undefiled. But purfication rituals will restore balance.

This is very different from the position outlined by Redwolf which is very individualistic by comparison. An adherent of a religion which is big on ritual purity would not regard a major element of accident in their defilement as letting them off the hook. They still need to perform the purification rituals, just as they would if defilement had come about through carelessness.

[Nanohedron]

Yes, indeed. I wasn't arguing what you had to say, Wombat, so much as pointing out something observed in relation to it. All for diversity's sake.

[MarkB]

For the longest time in my life, I thought gravey was a vegetable because flour was used in it's preparation.

MarkB

[Nanohedron]

For the ongest time in my life, I thought gravey was a vegetable because flour was used in it's preparation.

MarkB

I have it on former Presidential authority that tomato ketchup is a vegetable.

[Redwolf]

Intent is always a factor I suppose although how much of a factor depends. What I was getting at was that slipping up unintentionally does not leave one undefiled. But purfication rituals will restore balance.

This is very different from the position outlined by Redwolf which is very individualistic by comparison. An adherent of a religion which is big on ritual purity would not regard a major element of accident in their defilement as letting them off the hook. They still need to perform the purification rituals, just as they would if defilement had come about through carelessness.

True...but the majority of the people in the U.S. who are ethical vegetarians are not affected by the concept of ritual purity, and it was ethical vegetarianism in general that I was addressing.

Redwolf

[DCrom]

Years ago, in a pub in York, I had the rather surreal experience of trying a vegetarian Yorkshire pudding.

For those who haven't had one, think of a popover that's been cooked in beef drippings, normally served with roast beef (and covered with gravy).

The pub offered both. The vegetarian version was covered with a fairly decent vegetable curry, but I did wonder if the pudding itself had been cooked in drippings. Since I'm not a vegetarian myself, it didn't really matter - but I remember thinking that if I *was* a vegetarian I'd be a bit worried.

[lyrick]

About 30 years ago I was visiting my mom, and she served pork chops. I took one look at it and a light bulb went on in my head--"There's something not right about this". I've been a vegetarian since, although I'm not maniacal about it, for example I do take an animal product for a medical condition I have. It's more a personal choice for me than anything. I have nothing against flesh eaters, but for me there's just something that doesn't feel quite right about ripping into the flesh of other animals with my teeth.

Yes, it's flesh you're eating (except for haggis, etc.). You can call it meat or beef or whatever, but the poll choices should really be "vegetarian" and "flesh eater". (No offense intended.)

Rick

[jsluder]

Yes, it's flesh you're eating (except for haggis, etc.). You can call it meat or beef or whatever, but the poll choices should really be "vegetarian" and "flesh eater". (No offense intended.)

Rick

Somewhat OT (but then, this whole thread is OT):
http://www.terrybisson.com/meat.html



John

[NicoMoreno]

Yes, it's meat you're eating. You can call it flesh or beef or whatever, but the poll choices should really be "vegetarian" and "meat eater". (No offense intended.)

hmm... if you switch meat and flesh, you get the same thing...

makes one wonder: which came first: the meat or the flesh?

[mamakash]

About 30 years ago I was visiting my mom, and she served pork chops. I took one look at it and a light bulb went on in my head--"There's something not right about this".

Lisa Simpson had pretty much the same experience, except the food in question was lamb chops. I enjoy watching that particular Simpson episode, which did not make vegetarianism seem weird or comical. Paul and Linda McCarthy make a guest showing, too.

[boomerang]

I am not really sure if i should enter into this discussion, after seeing so many ppl on this board who are vegetarians,
I have worked in the meat industry all my working life, as a retail butcher, beef boner, and now a meat inspector / meat safety officer.
regarding cruelty,
here in australia legislation mandates the humane treatment of all animals to be processed for human consumption, there are extremely high penalties for those found in breach of these laws, generally companies do not condone any cruelty, yet some lesser educated employees will take matters into their own hands, if seen this is very quickly corrected, part of my job description is to ensure any breach of the animal welfare code is reported, to date i have had no reason to make any such report.

food and health is all about choices, vegetables are healthy, well except for any chemical residues left on them, Meat has had its problems in the past also,
the basis of common sence is everything in moderation, a balanced diet is essential for the human body to function properly, abstanence from any food group to me just doesnt make any sence, but again its all about choice.
regards
David

[Claus von Weiss]

Ok, ready to go up in flames ...

But I really can't stand this tolerance thing flesh eaters always go on about (as well as many vegetarians too - strangely enough).

When I see a living, feeling fellow being mistreated or killed, I won't stand watching, saying "I wouldn't do this, but I must accept that others feel different about it". Crap! I'd do what I can to stop this happening, and if needs be I'd actually "kick ass" to do so. Ok, I hate violence in any form, but I really can understand PETA sometimes going over the top.

So please don't give me this "You're taking away my freedom of choice". Meat is murder - and I won't "tolerate" murder.

Sorry folks, that's how I feel about it. And so does the beef before it ends up on a plate.

Claus (seeking cover now, but still proudly munching a carrot )

[Wombat]

Intent is always a factor I suppose although how much of a factor depends. What I was getting at was that slipping up unintentionally does not leave one undefiled. But purfication rituals will restore balance.

This is very different from the position outlined by Redwolf which is very individualistic by comparison. An adherent of a religion which is big on ritual purity would not regard a major element of accident in their defilement as letting them off the hook. They still need to perform the purification rituals, just as they would if defilement had come about through carelessness.

True...but the majority of the people in the U.S. who are ethical vegetarians are not affected by the concept of ritual purity, and it was ethical vegetarianism in general that I was addressing.

Redwolf

That would be true of the majority in Australia and Europe too. We are, each in our own way and with minority exceptions, post enlightenment, individualistic societies. When I said right at the start of the thread that there were good reasons to be vegetarian, it was arguments like yours designed to sway individualists that I had in mind.

Just as a matter of curiosity, do Christian biblical literalists in the US (or anywhere) take the abominations of Leviticus seriously, and with them the dietry laws they underwrite? If not, why not?

[Chuck_Clark]

Meat is murder - and I won't "tolerate" murder.

Ah, yes. Righteous fanaticism. Or, should I say, self-righteous arrogance.

But why not just follow it to its logical end? With your oh-so-righteous carrot chomping, you're still destroying a living organism to prolong your own selfish existence. Let us know when you have proceeded to the next plateau of your enlightenment.