It's time for me to become a vegetarian again

[Walden]

I first heard of PETA when they were putting up "Jesus was a vegetarian" signs, outside of major religios deniminations' conventions.

It seems unlikely that He could have been a vegetarian, as a practicing Jew, eating Passover meal in the era of Herod's temple. Further, we know that under a definition of vegetarian that includes fish, the Scripture plainly states that He ate fish after the Ressurection. Also, one of His most famous miracles was feeding bread and fish to the multitude. Indeed some of the Apostles were in the fishing industry. But since traditionally, in the West, abstaining from meat often didn't include abstinence from fish, this latter might be overlooked in PETA's claim.

[Redwolf]

I first heard of PETA when they were putting up "Jesus was a vegetarian" signs, outside of major religios deniminations' conventions.

It seems unlikely that He could have been a vegetarian, as a practicing Jew, eating Passover meal in the era of Herod's temple. Further, we know that under a definition of vegetarian that includes fish, the Scripture plainly states that He ate fish after the Ressurection. Also, one of His most famous miracles was feeding bread and fish to the multitude. Indeed some of the Apostles were in the fishing industry. But since traditionally, in the West, abstaining from meat often didn't include abstinence from fish, this latter might be overlooked in PETA's claim.

Nah...PETA would be among the first in line to assure you that no valid definition of "vegetarian" includes fish (and it's one of the few things I agree with them on...the word was actually coined BY vegetarians and SPECIFICALLY excludes fish). Their assertion was that the word "fish" was used metaphorically or, in some places, mistranslated. They also claim that Jesus was an Essene, which certainly doesn't fit with the Jesus we know from the Scriptures. Their "Jesus Was a Vegetarian" argument is ridiculous in the extreme, and yet another reason I'm not a PETA supporter.

Redwolf

[Nanohedron]

Actually, it's nearly impossible to be a vegetarian in some places. Grilling over an open fire is so popular that you literally breathe meat as air pollution.

http://www.webcom.com/~bi/BARBEQUE.htm

"It is estimated that meat cooking produces 21% of the particulates smaller than 2.5 microns (PM2.5) in Los Angeles (Aerosol Science and Technology 1991;14:138-152)."


Now I want a hamburger

This is an interesting point to me. Potential spiritual and philosophical questions raise their bugaboo heads: what is the cost to observant Jewry, for instance, when passing by a pork rib barbecue and inhaling the aroma (particulates, after all), or cheeseburgers being grilled, or the smell of frying bacon? Are there degrees of violation of kashruth that apply to this? Or how about in the case of Islamic dietary law? Or Hindu?

How about someone who's a vegetarian by way of ethical motivation, such as Chris is entertaining? Actually, that one's probably the easiest to reconcile. People who are vegetarians for health reasons, valid or not, would have to worry more.

Just to point out, despite my random and unhelpfully unanswered above questions, that I'm convinced that all of creation are equally tied to the life and death, generation and destruction, of all things. Some may argue against this as invalid. Such a view does, however, allow me to eat meat. It also very much requires me to remember in no uncertain terms that a life was snuffed to stave off my hunger for a bit longer. I, too, will indeed be eaten in some way some day. I don't see this as disrespectful, but as a fundamental thing that is only more horrific the closer and longer one looks at it. This is simply how it goes. This world fuels my longing for transformation; I am more likely to undergo it via another's digestion, though.

If meat eating is not an option, natural food co-ops frequently have meats from free-range and ethically treated creatures available.

[Chuck_Clark]

I'm a confirmed carnivore and have no real interest in conversio to any other faiths at this point in my life. If we evolved to eat grass, sometime along the way we lost the proper dentition and digestive equipment.

OTOH, if meat prices remain where they are, I may be forced into a a form or reluctant but obligatory vegetarianism.

[Darwin]

I've drifted from 90-percent carnivore to 95-percent lacto-ovo vegetarian. (All figures are approximate. ) However, I spent all of 1976 as a strict lacto-ovo vegetarian. I was stationed at Ft. Bragg, NC at the time, and when my unit went to the field, I had to carry all my own food. Fortunately, I was a senior NCO by that time, and got away with lugging an extra pack full of granola bars and canned fruit.

I've pretty much lost interest in meat--especially beef. Most of my meat comes from things that my wife doesn't finish, or from the rare formal meal with family or friends.

One of the health arguments against meat is that humans have a very long colon, which tends to keep the meat in for a relatively long time, leading to the production of unhealthy byproducts as it breaks down. One of my Arabic instructors was a Sufi, and this was one of his points (which also included milk, but not modified milk products, such as yogurt and cheese).

I'm not entirely convinced that this is a real problem with a balanced diet that includes meat, but I can see that it could be with high-meat diets. I'm not aware of any actual research on this point.

I don't have an ethical problem with meat eating, per se, but I sure do with the mistreatment of animals for any reason. I don't know about dairy cattle, but I do know that lots of chickens--including egg layers--are raised in appalling conditions, so refraining from meat alone does not guarantee that you are not contributing to animal mistreatment.

If the idea of "free range" chicken seems strange to you, take a look at http://www.cnr.uidaho.edu/range556/Appl ... alism.html (Commercial breeders my reduce cannibalism by beak-trimming, keeping chickens in low light, putting blinders on them, or by putting pine tar on pecked chickens to make them taste bad.)

Simply being a vegetarian in today's world won't stop the mistreatment of vast numbers of food animals. Your personal consumption or non-consumption is a drop in the bucket. What's needed is legislation and enforcement.

[Redwolf]

As a long-time ethical vegetarian, I can tell you that, for most of us, it comes down to doing what you can. I can't keep from inhaling the particulates from the hamburger joint down the street, but I can choose not to buy a hamburger. I can't change the fact that animal products are used in the production of camera film, but I can choose to use a digital camera. Little choices may not seem to make a difference, but I'm here to tell you, they add up. When I first gave up meat, a little over 16 years ago, you couldn't find veggie burgers in most health food stores...never mind supermarkets! (and FORGET about Burger King...at least here in the U.S.). Veggie entrees were few and far between on most restaurant menus. I couldn't even eat in most Mexican restaurants because lard was ubiquitous, not only in the beans, but in the tortillas and sauces. I walk through the freezer aisle at Safeway today and see five or six choices of veggie burger, as well as veggie chicken, veggie ribs, etc. I see the word "vegetarian" displayed prominently on cans and bottles of everything from soup to salad dressing. I see restaurants proudly proclaiming "vegetarian entrees" and "no lard" and I have to figure that I and others like me who made choices and were vocal about them have, indeed, made a difference.

I don't expect that everyone in the world will ever go entirely vegetarian. I don't even think that's a moderately reasonable expectation. We're not "veggi-vangelists" ("we" in this case meaning my family)...we don't try to make others uncomfortable about their food choices. That serves no purpose at all. Likewise, if we realize we've consumed meat in some form, inadvertantly, we may resolve to avoid that place or product in the future, but we don't chastise ourselves, and if the cause was another person's legitimate mistake, we don't chastise him or her either. I'll happily accept the invitation to your barbecue, if you don't mind my bringing along my own food, and if the grill you thought was new had someone else's burger on it before my veggie burger hit it, well, that's life. Sometimes it's unavoidable. What's important, to my mind, is the choice. 16+ years ago, I made the following choice: never, by any CONSCIOUS action on my part, insofar as it can be avoided, to harm another living creature, human or non-human. That doesn't make me morally superior to anyone...it's just what I feel I have to do. As a friend of mine is fond of saying, your mileage may vary

Redwolf

[emmline]

ditto what Red said.

[avanutria]

Well posted, Red.

[mamakash]

I'm a very happy vegetarian, happier to have a mostly veg mom, and happiest to get served veg burgers at my relatives' cookout, not because they eat veg burgers, but they can respect the fact that I don't eat meat. Mom eats veg burgers, too.
Happiness is sitting down in a Ruby Tuesdays restaurant and enjoying pasta with an awesome spicy marinara sauce and grilled zucchini. It was our first time there . . . vegetables never seemed to get prepared correctly at restaurants. The zucchini was amazing. I was in heaven.

[Wombat]

As a long-time ethical vegetarian, I can tell you that, for most of us, it comes down to doing what you can. I can't keep from inhaling the particulates from the hamburger joint down the street, but I can choose not to buy a hamburger. I can't change the fact that animal products are used in the production of camera film, but I can choose to use a digital camera.

I think that, in the religions (mentioned by Nano) that make a big deal out of ritual purity, choice is of some importance but of much less importance than this. If you find yourself in an impure state, you are impure. Intent might have had little or nothing to do with it.

These religions have rituals of purification so you can return to a state of purity by performing those rituals.

It's a question that very much interests me why some cultures, religions and personalitites are attracted by very rigid notions of ritual purity and others are not. The abominations of Leviticus do not seem to be dictated by considerations either by a concern for human health or by a concern to avoid harming sentient beings. The best writings I know of on this subject are by Mary Douglas.

[Planck]

I am a new guy here, and I have only read the last page; but, I eat meat and I like it. However, we have an 18 year old daughter who has developed a social conscious and does not eat beef for energy efficiency reasons (I love it). This can make eating adventurous, but that is pretty cool, respecting others stands is waht it i9s all about.

John

[lyndamic]

I'm a total carnivore.. I grew up in rural MO, The men (dad, grandpa, uncles, etc.) hunted rabbit, turkey, deer and squirrel and we ate them all with gusto. Though I've since given up squirrel. My personal faves: rabbit stew or venison chili. My dad and husband still hunt deer, rabbit and turkey, and we have meat all year thanks to the deep freezer. We rarely buy meat in the grocery store. And I'm not some grizzled old-timer, I'm early 30's. Everyone in the family seems to live well into their 90's, so it's working for us.
I'm glad for people if being a vegetarian makes them feel good, ethically or physically. But it's sure not for me!
Lyn
P.S. Bring on the anti-hunting flames!
Edited: Oh, I forgot to mention the duck, pheasant, quail, et al. YUM!

[Chuck_Clark]

Bring on the anti-hunting flames!

Actually, that's not too likely to happen here. There are a few buttheads, but we're mostly a rather tolerant bunch. BUT, just in case one of them DOES show up, I'd like to point out that crippling joint disease is the only reason I no longer hunt. I still do target practice. My old lab is gone now, but it used to break my heart to see her watch me get a gun out and in her own way beg me to take her out hunting.

The tolerance goes both ways. I remember a couple of forums where the vegan/PETA/Greenpeace types were the most vicoius flamers on the board - unlike the laid-back ones we have.

I know some folks here listen to Prairie Home Companion regularly and they at least will understand me when I allege that whistles are even better than ketchup for mellowing folks.

[moxy]

...I can't change the fact that animal products are used in the production of camera film...

Wow, I didn't know that. I've been considering delving into my photography interests after Christmas, and have been looking for an SLR camera (with film, not digital)... Maybe I will be reconsidering that...

I'm not a vegetarian, but I might as well be...

[emmline]

...I can't change the fact that animal products are used in the production of camera film...

Wow, I didn't know that. I've been considering delving into my photography interests after Christmas, and have been looking for an SLR camera (with film, not digital)... Maybe I will be reconsidering that...

I'm not a vegetarian, but I might as well be...

It's the emulsion on photographic film that's gelatin based.
My daughter, for this reason, would only have a digital camera. I bought myself a digital last year, and because of the ease of file sharing, cheaper print-making, photoshoppability of the whole process, I'd never go back to film whatever the ethics.

As for the anti-hunting flaming: While I'd have zero interest in hunting, I've often thought that I'd rather be the deer living a normal life who is suddenly taken down by a hunter, than the farm-factoried animal living in abysmal conditions.