That's known as "acoustic pressure" and is quite measurable (can also be used to hold small objects in suspension)GaryKelly wrote: No not really. There's no air coming out of a loudspeaker, but if you stand close to one (let's say a nice big one on stage), it *feels* like there's air coming out of it. There isn't. It's the vibrations in the air you feel, because the air is moving back and forth (that's what sound is).
Non-wooden Irish flutes-a good choice?
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Jack Bradshaw
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603/329-7322
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
-
Dana
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I wouldn't know about "feeling" the air coming out of the end of a flute. What I was referring to was the sound. When you sit downwind of a flutist (as in playing 2nd flute in an orchestra), the sound is louder and much "whooshier". This is one reason 2nd flutes normally sit to the principal player's right. They can hear much better than if they sit to the player's left.GaryKelly wrote:No not really. There's no air coming out of a loudspeaker, but if you stand close to one (let's say a nice big one on stage), it *feels* like there's air coming out of it. There isn't. It's the vibrations in the air you feel, because the air is moving back and forth (that's what sound is). If the air from your lungs was flowing out yer lips, into the emb.hole of the flute, and out the end, you wouldn't have a tone, or a flute, you'd have a pea-shooter.dhigbee wrote: Also, anyone that regularly sits down-wind from a flutist, i.e. to their right will tell you that there is certainly some air that comes out the end.
BTW, you can often get a good whiff of what the player's had for dinner.
Dana
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GaryKelly
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Absolutely right, because the air column in the flute body is vibrating backwards and forwards along the length of the flute, the air without at the open end is obliged to move backwards and forwards too.dhigbee wrote:I wouldn't know about "feeling" the air coming out of the end of a flute. What I was referring to was the sound. When you sit downwind of a flutist (as in playing 2nd flute in an orchestra), the sound is louder and much "whooshier". This is one reason 2nd flutes normally sit to the principal player's right. They can hear much better than if they sit to the player's left.
It was only your earlier remark "...to their right will tell you that there is certainly some air that comes out the end" that doesn't sit right, makes it sound as though you meant air flows in one end and out the other, like the hosepipe/peashooter analogy I made earlier.
"It might be a bit better to tune to one of my fiddle's open strings, like A, rather than asking me for an F#." - Martin Milner-
Jack Bradshaw
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I suppose if I had to say where on the flute the material characteristics would be the most pronounced it would be the face of the cork.
(where the remaining pressure wave reflects........the losses in the bore are principally viscous and thermal.......)
(where the remaining pressure wave reflects........the losses in the bore are principally viscous and thermal.......)
603/329-7322
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
-
GaryKelly
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And I think I would concur based on three experiences: the DJ Allan flute with faux ivory stopper, my Bleazey (cork stopper), and an Indian-made Eb that had some ghastly fibrous material as a stopper (looked like a shotgun wad!). Changing the Indian stopper to cork turned a mushy almost-silent flute into a playable instrument with a pleasant tone.Jack Bradshaw wrote:I suppose if I had to say where on the flute the material characteristics would be the most pronounced it would be the face of the cork.
(where the remaining pressure wave reflects........the losses in the bore are principally viscous and thermal.......)
The Allan definitely sounds a lot crisper and brighter than the Bleazey, but how much of that is due to the semitone difference in pitch or the stopper material is open to debate. And I'm not prepared to monkey with either of those two flutes to find out!
But I'm sure there are those who've glued or otherwise stuck metal (coins?) to the front face of their stoppers who can attest to the results of those experiments.
"It might be a bit better to tune to one of my fiddle's open strings, like A, rather than asking me for an F#." - Martin Milner-
Doug_Tipple
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As an ex-geophysicist, I suppose that I should specialize in flutes made from marble or granite. Instead, I have been practicing out of my realm of expertise, focusing instead on PVC, which I purchase in 10-foot sections in the plumbing aisle of the hardware store.
I will share with you the results of experimentation that I have already completed with regard to whether flutes made from different materials actually sound differently or whether this is just my imagination gone wild. I normally make PVC flutes from white plumbing pipe. However, I have made flutes from light gray PVC electrical conduit. Both types of rigid piping have exactly the same dimensions in terms of internal and external diameters and wall thickness. In the process of constructing two identical flutes with identical dimensions, I was aware that the electrical conduit is not as hard as the white PVC. I was curious whether there would also be a difference in the way that these otherwise identical flutes would perform.
When I played the two flutes, that have been just described, I found that the flute made from the light gray electrical conduit had a softer (less volume) tone than the flute made from the harder white PVC. And this fact is readily apparent to everyone who compares the two flutes. Now the question is, “Why is that?” Contrary to what has been alluded to in this thread, my answer is that the vibrating flute body participates in the overall production of sound, and the degree that a flute body will vibrate is a function of the acoustic resonance of the material. In the case of the two flutes just mentioned in the experiment, clearly, the softer gray PVC is not as resonant as the white PVC and therefore produces a softer tone.
And to the question of whether there is any movement of air in the flute, I find it difficult to question the fact that is obvious to any flute player, namely that it takes a good supply of air to sustain notes on the flute, more so than any other wind instrument, even the tuba. The air from the mouth is split at the blow hole, with most of the air diving down into the flute body. The air molecules exhaust through the open finger holes, the unfingered exhaust ports, and out the end of the flute. What are stationary are the standing waves, which are a function of the internal dimensions of the flute and the length of the vibrating column of air. But like I said before, as a geophysicist turned amateur musician, this is the best answer that I can come up with. Maybe an astrophysicist would have a better answer.
I will share with you the results of experimentation that I have already completed with regard to whether flutes made from different materials actually sound differently or whether this is just my imagination gone wild. I normally make PVC flutes from white plumbing pipe. However, I have made flutes from light gray PVC electrical conduit. Both types of rigid piping have exactly the same dimensions in terms of internal and external diameters and wall thickness. In the process of constructing two identical flutes with identical dimensions, I was aware that the electrical conduit is not as hard as the white PVC. I was curious whether there would also be a difference in the way that these otherwise identical flutes would perform.
When I played the two flutes, that have been just described, I found that the flute made from the light gray electrical conduit had a softer (less volume) tone than the flute made from the harder white PVC. And this fact is readily apparent to everyone who compares the two flutes. Now the question is, “Why is that?” Contrary to what has been alluded to in this thread, my answer is that the vibrating flute body participates in the overall production of sound, and the degree that a flute body will vibrate is a function of the acoustic resonance of the material. In the case of the two flutes just mentioned in the experiment, clearly, the softer gray PVC is not as resonant as the white PVC and therefore produces a softer tone.
And to the question of whether there is any movement of air in the flute, I find it difficult to question the fact that is obvious to any flute player, namely that it takes a good supply of air to sustain notes on the flute, more so than any other wind instrument, even the tuba. The air from the mouth is split at the blow hole, with most of the air diving down into the flute body. The air molecules exhaust through the open finger holes, the unfingered exhaust ports, and out the end of the flute. What are stationary are the standing waves, which are a function of the internal dimensions of the flute and the length of the vibrating column of air. But like I said before, as a geophysicist turned amateur musician, this is the best answer that I can come up with. Maybe an astrophysicist would have a better answer.
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Jack Bradshaw
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More likely, (as both of these have....relatively.....lower acoustic impedances) is that the material friction losses in the gray PVC are absorbing more of the available energy. The "acoustic cavity models" usually postulate complete sound reflection at the "completely rigid" walls. You could probably also find glass tubing with the same dimensions to try.
The "traditional" flute materials try to get this "rigid" structure (to get as little non-radiating energy loss as possible.........there's enough with the holes)
The astrphysicists have enough trouble already !
The "traditional" flute materials try to get this "rigid" structure (to get as little non-radiating energy loss as possible.........there's enough with the holes)
The astrphysicists have enough trouble already !
603/329-7322
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
-
Casey Burns
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Most of what I have read about the acoustics of wind instruments says that the "boundary layer" - more simply the air right at the surface of the bore wall - is where much of the acoustics "happen". I think that the acousticians are correct in saying that two flutes of identical dimensions but of different materials (say gold or silver) will sound and play exactly. But I wonder what they mean by "exact" - especially comparing wood with other woods and plastics.
I have directly observed that the finish of the bore, the porosity of the wood in the bore, grain pattern etc. have a significant effect on tone and how the flute feels to the player. This is easily demonstrated by taking a flute where the bore grain has raised, and rebuffing it, as I routinely do with my clients' flutes as needed. These microscopic dimensional differences are significant controls to tonal quality. I have found that leaving a certain "tooth" to the bore, as opposed to polishing it up to a mirror finish, leaves a nice degree of resistance. One quick way to change a bore, if temporarily, is to oil it. Same flute - but different in the small dimensions.
Other microscopic dimensional features affect the tone as well. As a flute ages the bore goes slightly oval. I have observed that this improves the overall balance of the flute. I have also heard that some of the modern silver flute makers squeeze the tubing so as to create this effect.
Theoretically it would be possible to make a plastic flute sound well with attention to these fine details. I experimented with flutes out of polyester resin sold as "alternative ivory", and found that I could get close to the sound of my wooden flutes - but there was a certain lack of warmth and friendly feel to this material, so I abandoned this. It was probably due to these microscopic features, especially bore ovality.
As to which is preferable from an environmental standpoint, wood is to some degree more renewable than petroleum based products, and leaves less waste products. For instance, I use blackwood and mopane shavings as mulch in my gardens and my plants don't object. In terms of resource use, the idea that we are running out of these woods is also suspect - we may be running out of commercially viable trees, thanks to the clarinet industry, but the species are far from extinct. Much of what I use has been rejected by that industry and once went to power their boilers! And alternatives to blackwood abound (such as Mopane), including some "local" species: here, Mountain Mahogany. in Australia, Cooktown Ironwood. Even black locust works well for flutes - I have some honey locust I plan to try someday.
As to petroleum based products - I use enough of these (including the oil required to ship blackwood from Africa!) that saying that one is better than the other is pointless. If what they are saying about the Hubbert Curve is correct (see www.hubbertpeak.com), we will shortly have greater worries than which material is better suited for flutes!
An aside to the Hubbert Curve - M. King Hubbert was an oil industry insider who predicted accurately the domestic (US) peak of oil production in the early 70's. He was also the uncle of Michael Hubbert, who makes mostly Uilleann pipes these days, but who is also a great flute maker and luthier.
Casey
I have directly observed that the finish of the bore, the porosity of the wood in the bore, grain pattern etc. have a significant effect on tone and how the flute feels to the player. This is easily demonstrated by taking a flute where the bore grain has raised, and rebuffing it, as I routinely do with my clients' flutes as needed. These microscopic dimensional differences are significant controls to tonal quality. I have found that leaving a certain "tooth" to the bore, as opposed to polishing it up to a mirror finish, leaves a nice degree of resistance. One quick way to change a bore, if temporarily, is to oil it. Same flute - but different in the small dimensions.
Other microscopic dimensional features affect the tone as well. As a flute ages the bore goes slightly oval. I have observed that this improves the overall balance of the flute. I have also heard that some of the modern silver flute makers squeeze the tubing so as to create this effect.
Theoretically it would be possible to make a plastic flute sound well with attention to these fine details. I experimented with flutes out of polyester resin sold as "alternative ivory", and found that I could get close to the sound of my wooden flutes - but there was a certain lack of warmth and friendly feel to this material, so I abandoned this. It was probably due to these microscopic features, especially bore ovality.
As to which is preferable from an environmental standpoint, wood is to some degree more renewable than petroleum based products, and leaves less waste products. For instance, I use blackwood and mopane shavings as mulch in my gardens and my plants don't object. In terms of resource use, the idea that we are running out of these woods is also suspect - we may be running out of commercially viable trees, thanks to the clarinet industry, but the species are far from extinct. Much of what I use has been rejected by that industry and once went to power their boilers! And alternatives to blackwood abound (such as Mopane), including some "local" species: here, Mountain Mahogany. in Australia, Cooktown Ironwood. Even black locust works well for flutes - I have some honey locust I plan to try someday.
As to petroleum based products - I use enough of these (including the oil required to ship blackwood from Africa!) that saying that one is better than the other is pointless. If what they are saying about the Hubbert Curve is correct (see www.hubbertpeak.com), we will shortly have greater worries than which material is better suited for flutes!
An aside to the Hubbert Curve - M. King Hubbert was an oil industry insider who predicted accurately the domestic (US) peak of oil production in the early 70's. He was also the uncle of Michael Hubbert, who makes mostly Uilleann pipes these days, but who is also a great flute maker and luthier.
Casey
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Jack Bradshaw
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At room temperature and pressure that boundary layer (at least the part directly ineracting with the wall) is of the order of ten to the minus 4 mm.....ie 0.0001mm. ( That's around a thousand angstroms or 100 nanometers folks! ) So there is plenty of room for tonal variation in the wall finish !
603/329-7322
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
"I fail to see why doing the same thing over and over and getting the
same results every time is insanity: I've almost proved it isn't;
only a few more tests now and I'm sure results will differ this time ... "
-
elizabeth
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non-wood materials for flutes
As interesting as this discussion has sometimes been, we have gotten way off track from Doug's original question about non-wood alternatives. It seems there are some people who just will not believe that different materials might sound different froom each other. Yes, I know one needs to compare exact copies in the different materials to prove that theory. As Jack's latest post implies, good luck getting them made.
Casey Burns wrote:
"Other microscopic dimensional features affect the tone as well. As a flute ages the bore goes slightly oval. I have observed that this improves the overall balance of the flute. I have also heard that some of the modern silver flute makers squeeze the tubing so as to create this effect."
I would love to know what makers he refers to. As a flutemaker of metal flutes, all our tubing is spec'd. for roundness and concentricity. I am quite unhappy when tubing arrives that is out-of-round. Fortunately, it doesn't happen often.
Imagine trying to fit rings, toneholes, ribs and keys to an oval flute! What a nightmare. Not to mention fitting the tenons to barrel and box tubing. Oval? I don't think so...
Best wishes,
Elizabeth
Casey Burns wrote:
"Other microscopic dimensional features affect the tone as well. As a flute ages the bore goes slightly oval. I have observed that this improves the overall balance of the flute. I have also heard that some of the modern silver flute makers squeeze the tubing so as to create this effect."
I would love to know what makers he refers to. As a flutemaker of metal flutes, all our tubing is spec'd. for roundness and concentricity. I am quite unhappy when tubing arrives that is out-of-round. Fortunately, it doesn't happen often.
Imagine trying to fit rings, toneholes, ribs and keys to an oval flute! What a nightmare. Not to mention fitting the tenons to barrel and box tubing. Oval? I don't think so...
Best wishes,
Elizabeth
If it was necessary to tolerate in other people everything that one permits in oneself, life would be intolerable. --Georges Courteline
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I.D.10-t
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Brass
I am suprised that metal has not been mentioned. Weathers nicely, takes a beating and can have any leval of polish to the bore. Some period instraments were metal so the trad issews can even be adressed.
I have been playing with brass water tubing as a piccolo. Lots of fun. It hasn't helped my playing though.
I have seen, and heard, people state that they can hear the difference between silver and gold heads on bohem flutes. I don't buy it.
Glass has been used, but i would be nervice holding one.
I know carrot has been used, but it tends to sag in a day or two. It makes a great salad after the performance though.
I have been playing with brass water tubing as a piccolo. Lots of fun. It hasn't helped my playing though.
I have seen, and heard, people state that they can hear the difference between silver and gold heads on bohem flutes. I don't buy it.
Glass has been used, but i would be nervice holding one.
I know carrot has been used, but it tends to sag in a day or two. It makes a great salad after the performance though.
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WistleEnvy
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Re: Brass
This reminds me of a quote from Brad Hurleys site that has always made me pause :I.D.10-t wrote:I am suprised that metal has not been mentioned...
I have been playing with brass water tubing as a piccolo.
http://www.firescribble.net/flute/choosing2.html
"Vincent Broderick's brother Peter won the All-Ireland championship with a flute he made out of a length of copper pipe"
Something to think about
Colin
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glauber
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In the same vein, who was it, wasn't it Colm O'Donnell that won an All-Ireland with a flute that Michael Cronnoly made out of a spoke of a wooden wheel?
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog!
--Wellsprings--
--Wellsprings--
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Jon C.
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- Tell us something.: I restore 19th century flutes, specializing in Rudall & Rose, and early American flutes. I occasionally make new flutes. Been at it for about 15 years.
- Location: San Diego
In the same vain...
I have often wondered why people perferred a metal lined head on the wooden flute, or like Terry Mcgee offers a silver head for the wooden flute.
When most of the tonal quality is generated in the headjoint, it seems that a all wood- unlined head would be perferred. Otherwise you might as well have a silver flute. Is this true?
I was trying to find the study I read, where they made a flute with a delrin head and several bodies that rotated so the flutest could play the same piece with each body, silver, wood, concrete etc. They played for about 30 professionals, and hardly anyone could tell the difference!
Jon
I have often wondered why people perferred a metal lined head on the wooden flute, or like Terry Mcgee offers a silver head for the wooden flute.
When most of the tonal quality is generated in the headjoint, it seems that a all wood- unlined head would be perferred. Otherwise you might as well have a silver flute. Is this true?
I was trying to find the study I read, where they made a flute with a delrin head and several bodies that rotated so the flutest could play the same piece with each body, silver, wood, concrete etc. They played for about 30 professionals, and hardly anyone could tell the difference!
Jon
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Jon C.
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- Tell us something.: I restore 19th century flutes, specializing in Rudall & Rose, and early American flutes. I occasionally make new flutes. Been at it for about 15 years.
- Location: San Diego
To beat a dead horse, I found this article by A H Benade, who was a genius is acoustical physics.
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klar ... 000333.txt
>From A. H. Benade, "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics":
22. 7. The Effect of Wall Material on the Playing Properties of Wind
Instruments
The question of whether or not the playing properties of a wind
instrument are influenced by the material from which it is made has been
the subject of curiously bitter controversy for at least 150 years. We
at once recognize the influence of dimensional changes that may be
forced on an instrument maker when, for example, he makes a wooden
rather than a silver flute, or those inadvertent ones which come about
from the different ways in which a bore reamer cuts wood and plastic. At
a subtler level, many kinds of things can lead to questions concerning
the influence of materials: when identical woodwind air columns are made
using wall materials of different porosity or rigidity, the resulting
sounding pitch of the instrument may vary by as much as twenty cents;
thin-walled instruments on which one can feel vibrations are often
improved (but sometimes spoiled) by putting layers of adhesive tape on
the outer surface at an empirically chosen spot; repairmen and players
alike are aware of the quite noticeable changes in the playing
properties of an instrument when pads of differing material are
installed for use in covering the tone holes, or when the bore is oiled.
Theory also poses questions, some of which are not hard to answer. For
instance, it has been known for many decades that the walls of a
perfectly round pipe cannot vibrate enough to radiate audible sounds
into the room. When such a pipe is slightly out-of-round (elliptical),
it can be excited much more strongly by internal pressure variations,
but even so it cannot radiate sound into the room with sufficient
amplitude to be heard in the presence of the other sources of
excitation. Because of this, changes in the material or the thickness of
the walls cannot detectably alter the sound of an instrument insofar as
it depends on radiation by the walls.
The connection between sharp edges on the corners of an instrument and
the material from which it is made is not difficult to find: instruments
normally come out with their corners sharper when plastic or metal is
used than when wood is the material of choice. It is the instinctive
tendency of a skilled craftsman to show his competence by producing
crisp clean edges for all his tone holes and joints, and the degree of
sharpness of these corners depends very much on the nature of the
materials with which he works and the sort of tools he uses. I have
found historical and contemporary examples of instruments made by the
best workmen in which the corners were deliberately rounded, as well as
those (much more common today) which are left with sharp corners. In
every case players prefer the ones with rounded corners. In the normal
course of traditional instrument-making, rounded corners are most often
produced on wooden instruments. A number of metal and plastic
instruments which I have reworked have prompted musicians to remark in
public that they play just like good wooden ones; players have also
remarked that instruments I have worked on have good "personalities"
which are independent of the materials from which they are made. One
must of course be sure that the mouthpiece, the air column, and the tone
holes are properly adjusted to one another, since mere postponement of
turbulent damping does not by itself
give an attractive instrument.
More food for thought...
Jon
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klar ... 000333.txt
>From A. H. Benade, "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics":
22. 7. The Effect of Wall Material on the Playing Properties of Wind
Instruments
The question of whether or not the playing properties of a wind
instrument are influenced by the material from which it is made has been
the subject of curiously bitter controversy for at least 150 years. We
at once recognize the influence of dimensional changes that may be
forced on an instrument maker when, for example, he makes a wooden
rather than a silver flute, or those inadvertent ones which come about
from the different ways in which a bore reamer cuts wood and plastic. At
a subtler level, many kinds of things can lead to questions concerning
the influence of materials: when identical woodwind air columns are made
using wall materials of different porosity or rigidity, the resulting
sounding pitch of the instrument may vary by as much as twenty cents;
thin-walled instruments on which one can feel vibrations are often
improved (but sometimes spoiled) by putting layers of adhesive tape on
the outer surface at an empirically chosen spot; repairmen and players
alike are aware of the quite noticeable changes in the playing
properties of an instrument when pads of differing material are
installed for use in covering the tone holes, or when the bore is oiled.
From A. H. Benade, "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics":Casey Burns wrote: Other microscopic dimensional features affect the tone as well. As a flute ages the bore goes slightly oval. I have observed that this improves the overall balance of the flute. I have also heard that some of the modern silver flute makers squeeze the tubing so as to create this effect.
Casey
Theory also poses questions, some of which are not hard to answer. For
instance, it has been known for many decades that the walls of a
perfectly round pipe cannot vibrate enough to radiate audible sounds
into the room. When such a pipe is slightly out-of-round (elliptical),
it can be excited much more strongly by internal pressure variations,
but even so it cannot radiate sound into the room with sufficient
amplitude to be heard in the presence of the other sources of
excitation. Because of this, changes in the material or the thickness of
the walls cannot detectably alter the sound of an instrument insofar as
it depends on radiation by the walls.
From A. H. Benade, "Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics":Casey Burns wrote: Theoretically it would be possible to make a plastic flute sound well with attention to these fine details.
Casey
The connection between sharp edges on the corners of an instrument and
the material from which it is made is not difficult to find: instruments
normally come out with their corners sharper when plastic or metal is
used than when wood is the material of choice. It is the instinctive
tendency of a skilled craftsman to show his competence by producing
crisp clean edges for all his tone holes and joints, and the degree of
sharpness of these corners depends very much on the nature of the
materials with which he works and the sort of tools he uses. I have
found historical and contemporary examples of instruments made by the
best workmen in which the corners were deliberately rounded, as well as
those (much more common today) which are left with sharp corners. In
every case players prefer the ones with rounded corners. In the normal
course of traditional instrument-making, rounded corners are most often
produced on wooden instruments. A number of metal and plastic
instruments which I have reworked have prompted musicians to remark in
public that they play just like good wooden ones; players have also
remarked that instruments I have worked on have good "personalities"
which are independent of the materials from which they are made. One
must of course be sure that the mouthpiece, the air column, and the tone
holes are properly adjusted to one another, since mere postponement of
turbulent damping does not by itself
give an attractive instrument.
More food for thought...
Jon