Non-wooden Irish flutes-a good choice?

[oleorezinator]

Nobody has yet mentioned ceramics. There is a maker of ceramic,
Boehm-style flutes in Japan named K. Sakurai. He has made flutes from a high-tech, machineable ceramic which is very strong--some car engine parts are made from it, I believe.

Elizabeth

here they are: http://cermet.flute.com.tw/faq.php?mode ... erialNum=5

[Nelson]

I am sure that when you hear a Christian Fundamentalist advocating that Noah put all the animals of the World on his boat, you do not bother to explain to them that two things cannot occupy the same space and that because every body drowned except his family that we are all Jews. The feeling you have is very similar to the one Dr Coltman and I have when hearing flutist discussing flute material. We spent our life working with and inventing resonate cavities. The material flutes are made of has nothing to do with the sound, pre sa. When the subject comes up flutist talk about irrelevant things like the sound of electronic synthizers. The new flutes made of modern materials in Finland with plastic insides sound like silver flutes. Silver flutes made in the 1830's of Rose & Rudall shape, for export to India, sounded like wooden flutes. Below is a paper presented by Dr. Coltman and sent to me in 1997. If it is too many words to put in a single reply, I will send it in two parts.

Wind Instrument Materials and Tone Quality
I wish to discuss briefly a subject that illustrates well some opposing beliefs of musicians and scientists. Most musicians, and most listeners, believe without question that the material of which a wind instrument is made has a profound effect on its tone quality. A flute made of silver is a requirement for any serious flutist, one made of gold is considered to enhance further the lush tones of the artist who can afford it. On the other hand, the metal clarinet is despised and cosigned to the junk heap , while plastic ones are considered fit only fort the student who cannot afford on make from the wood of the scarce mpingo tree.
Scientists, on the other hand, have long been skeptical of this view. Examination of the physics of the situation reveals no evidence that the walls of the wind instrument partake of any appreciable vibration. Quite a number of experiments attempting to elucidate the effect have been conducted over many years. Almost all of these have shown the effects to be non-existent. Let me give you a eemonstration.

(DEMO-- speaker played a short passage on each of two flutes identical in dimensions, but one made of light cherry wood, the other of concrete. No one in the audience claimed to hear a difference)

Let me quote now from a work by Victor Mahillon, describing an experience of the 1890's:
"Who does not know the brilliant sound of the cavalry trumpet? It would seem that if this same brilliance were produced in the same instrument totally constructed of wood, the error would disappear forever. Nothing of the sort. Over the years we have had the occasion to make heard almost every day, before a considerable number of instrumentalists, a trumpet of acacia wood constructed by Charles Mahillon to demonstrate the absurdity of an idea of which he was one of the leading adversaries. This instrument, constructed with the exact proportions of the cavalry trumpet, gave exactly the same brilliance as its equal in brass, to the degree that it is impossible to distinguish one from the other.
Is this believed? We have astounded almost everybody, but have convinced no body!"
Why is it, that 100 years later, the scientists have still convinced nobody? Let me give you some thoughts.
First, it is certainly true that materials affect greatly the sound of those instruments in which they are par of the acoustic mechanism, chiefly the string instruments. It is easy to assume that this is a general property of wall materials.
Second, there is the common mistake of confusing a correlation with cause-and-effect. I do not claim that a wooden flute sounds like a silver flute. This would be true only if the important acoustic dimensions, the smoothness of the interior surface, and the impermeability of the walls were identical. This is very difficult to achieve when the mechanical properties are so different. Naive listeners often remark on the distinctive tone color of the baroque flute, and usually attribute it to the fact that it is made of wood.
If these were the only factors at work, it might not be difficult to get general acceptance of the idea. But there is a third influence coming into play -- the powerful psychological effect of association. Note that the preferred materials are often expensive or rare ones, and have qualities of visual or tactual beauty that are in themselves appealing. My concrete flute is not likely to have a large market, whatever its tonal qualities might be.
We often prize things for their association, rather than for their intrinsic merit. Unknowingly, forged copies or imitation of paintings by famous artists have drawn appreciative critical comment - it is evident their intrinsic merit is comparable, perhaps even superior, but once the forgery is discovered, their market value drops to an insignificant fraction of that of the real thing.
There is also the association with surrounding circumstances. A meal served on fine china, with silver place-settings, snowy table cloths, and floral centerpieces may be in fact no more palatable or nourishing than one spooned out with a thud in an aluminum plate in an Army mess -- but somehow it really doesn't taste the same!
Finally, there are the practical and traditional aspects of manufacture. Student flutes are made of brass or nickel alloys because that is less expensive. They are also mass-produced, with attendant lowering of quality. A professional flute is carefully handcrafted with attention to precision fit and leak-free padding. Naturally, silver is selected as a base for such work not only because it is easily worked by hand, but because it is accepted as the standard for professional instruments. A fine wine is to be had only in bottles with corks-screw caps are instantly associated with cheap table wines, even though it is lear that a screw cap makes an inherently better seal.
While as a scientist, I am annoyed that few people believe me when I tell them the tone quality of a wind instrument is not due to the material of which it is made, I have come to realize that there is little harm done by allowing the musicians to persist in their illusion. I was said of Dr. Dayton C. Miller, one of the few scientists who was convinced of the relationship, that when played on his silver flute he was a fine flutist, when he played on his gold flute, he was an inspired flutist. Perhaps it is best that way.
John W. Coltman October 1997

[Nelson]

I am sure that when you hear a Christian Fundamentalist advocating that Noah put all the animals of the World on his boat, you do not bother to explain to them that two things cannot occupy the same space and that because every body drowned except his family that we are all Jews. The feeling you have is very similar to the one Dr Coltman and I have when hearing flutist discussing flute material. We spent our life working with and inventing resonate cavities. The material flutes are made of has nothing to do with the sound, pre sa. When the subject comes up flutist talk about irrelevant things like the sound of electronic synthizers. The new flutes made of modern materials in Finland with plastic insides sound like silver flutes. Silver flutes made in the 1830's of Rose & Rudall shape, for export to India, sounded like wooden flutes. Below is a paper presented by Dr. Coltman and sent to me in 1997. If it is too many words to put in a single reply, I will send it in two parts.

Wind Instrument Materials and Tone Quality
I wish to discuss briefly a subject that illustrates well some opposing beliefs of musicians and scientists. Most musicians, and most listeners, believe without question that the material of which a wind instrument is made has a profound effect on its tone quality. A flute made of silver is a requirement for any serious flutist, one made of gold is considered to enhance further the lush tones of the artist who can afford it. On the other hand, the metal clarinet is despised and cosigned to the junk heap , while plastic ones are considered fit only fort the student who cannot afford on make from the wood of the scarce mpingo tree.
Scientists, on the other hand, have long been skeptical of this view. Examination of the physics of the situation reveals no evidence that the walls of the wind instrument partake of any appreciable vibration. Quite a number of experiments attempting to elucidate the effect have been conducted over many years. Almost all of these have shown the effects to be non-existent. Let me give you a eemonstration.

(DEMO-- speaker played a short passage on each of two flutes identical in dimensions, but one made of light cherry wood, the other of concrete. No one in the audience claimed to hear a difference)

Let me quote now from a work by Victor Mahillon, describing an experience of the 1890's:
"Who does not know the brilliant sound of the cavalry trumpet? It would seem that if this same brilliance were produced in the same instrument totally constructed of wood, the error would disappear forever. Nothing of the sort. Over the years we have had the occasion to make heard almost every day, before a considerable number of instrumentalists, a trumpet of acacia wood constructed by Charles Mahillon to demonstrate the absurdity of an idea of which he was one of the leading adversaries. This instrument, constructed with the exact proportions of the cavalry trumpet, gave exactly the same brilliance as its equal in brass, to the degree that it is impossible to distinguish one from the other.
Is this believed? We have astounded almost everybody, but have convinced no body!"
Why is it, that 100 years later, the scientists have still convinced nobody? Let me give you some thoughts.
First, it is certainly true that materials affect greatly the sound of those instruments in which they are par of the acoustic mechanism, chiefly the string instruments. It is easy to assume that this is a general property of wall materials.
Second, there is the common mistake of confusing a correlation with cause-and-effect. I do not claim that a wooden flute sounds like a silver flute. This would be true only if the important acoustic dimensions, the smoothness of the interior surface, and the impermeability of the walls were identical. This is very difficult to achieve when the mechanical properties are so different. Naive listeners often remark on the distinctive tone color of the baroque flute, and usually attribute it to the fact that it is made of wood.
If these were the only factors at work, it might not be difficult to get general acceptance of the idea. But there is a third influence coming into play -- the powerful psychological effect of association. Note that the preferred materials are often expensive or rare ones, and have qualities of visual or tactual beauty that are in themselves appealing. My concrete flute is not likely to have a large market, whatever its tonal qualities might be.
We often prize things for their association, rather than for their intrinsic merit. Unknowingly, forged copies or imitation of paintings by famous artists have drawn appreciative critical comment - it is evident their intrinsic merit is comparable, perhaps even superior, but once the forgery is discovered, their market value drops to an insignificant fraction of that of the real thing.
There is also the association with surrounding circumstances. A meal served on fine china, with silver place-settings, snowy table cloths, and floral centerpieces may be in fact no more palatable or nourishing than one spooned out with a thud in an aluminum plate in an Army mess -- but somehow it really doesn't taste the same!
Finally, there are the practical and traditional aspects of manufacture. Student flutes are made of brass or nickel alloys because that is less expensive. They are also mass-produced, with attendant lowering of quality. A professional flute is carefully handcrafted with attention to precision fit and leak-free padding. Naturally, silver is selected as a base for such work not only because it is easily worked by hand, but because it is accepted as the standard for professional instruments. A fine wine is to be had only in bottles with corks-screw caps are instantly associated with cheap table wines, even though it is lear that a screw cap makes an inherently better seal.
While as a scientist, I am annoyed that few people believe me when I tell them the tone quality of a wind instrument is not due to the material of which it is made, I have come to realize that there is little harm done by allowing the musicians to persist in their illusion. I was said of Dr. Dayton C. Miller, one of the few scientists who was convinced of the relationship, that when played on his silver flute he was a fine flutist, when he played on his gold flute, he was an inspired flutist. Perhaps it is best that way.
John W. Coltman October 1997

[elizabeth]

Oleorezinator, I forgot about that one. That flute is brand new, introduced at this year's Nat'l. Flute Association convention by the Guo brothers. But there was another one, done Mr. Sakurai at least 10 years ago--probably not on the web.

Nelson: very interesting but... I didn't make any claims about the sound of ceramic flutes. Only that the material is strong and machinable. If a maker were to decide not to use exotic hardwoods, for whatever reason, then perhaps ceramic would be a suitable choice: machinable, durable and not endangered.

And oh, by the way--if I were in an audience listening to a concrete clarinet, I might be too stunned to respond to anything.

[Rosemary Lane]

The question of the effect of material on the sound of a flute is an old one. It reminds me of the parable of the American visitor to a Zen monastery in Japan. When the American saw a monk bow before the statue of the Buddha, he remarked with some surprise, "Why, I thought Zen adepts spit on the Buddha and held such images to be worthless!"

The monk responded, "You chose to spit. I bow."

If one thinks that material is irrelevant to the sound of a flute, and chooses to play a plastic or concrete flute, why go right ahead. I prefer to play my wood flute.

[Julia C]

A woodcarver's 2penceworth........Having looked at diagrams showing the patterns of air vibration in an open ended tube ( see the helpful replies to my "science question" thread a few days ago) I can see that you could make the tube out of any solid and the patterns inside would probably be the same . But what about vibrations WITHIN THE WALLS of the tube? A length of wood is, under a microscope, a bundle of long tubes within which water and tree food used to rise isn't it? Perhaps in a well seasoned flute these tubes are full of almond oil or resin whatever, but I find it hard to believe they don't vibrate at all - with all thiose vibrations going on right next to the wood - thereby adding some nuance to the sound? And surely the well known differences in expansion & contraction between wood & plastics & metals will also affect the sound under performance conditions for a similar reason? I find it hard to believe that a cellular structure like wood is unaffected by all the activity involved in being played as a flute. A blind test with a roomful of listeners is not convincing - has anyone measured the sound outputs more scientifically or tested the body of different flutes for vibration?

[GaryKelly]

Ah, but that's just the point that the scientists are making. The 'vibrations' in the flute body are standing waves, and no significant energy is transferred to the body walls by the air in the column, therefore the body material is irrelevant.

Think of it like a garden hose-pipe... it doesn't matter whether the hose is made of plastic or rubber or is just a length of copper pipe, when you turn the tap on, water comes out the end, when you turn it off, the water stops. You can wiggle the tap to make the water come out faster or slower, but the hose or pipe itself has got nothing to do with that.

In stringed instruments, as the letter Nelson posted mentioned, body material is everything (think guitar, fiddle, cello etc...), since the energy of the vibrating string is transferred via a bridge to a soundboard...it's the soundboard vibrating that gives a stringed instrument its tone. That's why electric guitars and electric fiddles are "silent" (almost) when not plugged into an amplifier.

There's another good point in the letter Nelson posted. For any of the tests along the lines of wood versus concrete versus plastic or any other material for flutes, what needs to be done is to make all the comparison flutes of exactly identical dimensions.

In other words, it's no good simply comparing, say, a Grinter blackwood keyless D with a gold Boehm flute. For the test to be valid, you'd have to make a Grintner keyless D from gold, with every single measurement identical. Do that, the science says, and no-one would be able to tell the difference in sound produced. Although of course a gold keyless flute using such dimensions would probably be really rather heavy, which would doubtless affect the player.

[Julia C]

I don't know enough physics to really understand the implications, I think, of a "standing wave". I wonder how soft, theoretically, the walls would have to be , to receive energy from or affect the standing wave.

[Dana]

For the test to be valid, you'd have to make a Grintner keyless D from gold, with every single measurement identical. Do that, the science says, and no-one would be able to tell the difference in sound produced. Although of course a gold keyless flute using such dimensions would probably be really rather heavy, which would doubtless affect the player.

I've never seen a study that was done this way. Most of them simply compare flutes of different quality or material, with little respect for dimensions. In addition, you'd almost have to blindfold the player to keep him/her from seeing the material of the flute. (Maybe put surgical gloves on the player too, so it would be difficult to feel the material). I don't know any way of dealing with the issue of the player feeling the weight of the flute. At least the listeners wouldn't be able to tell the difference. It would be worth having the groups listen to several flutists playing each instrument. Each flutist may respond differently to the various instruments.

I'd want groups of people listening; perhaps a group of flutists, a group of muscian non-flutists, and a group of non-musicians. The results between the groups could be correlated. Also, you'd need to put each flute through it's paces, playing in different registers, dynamics and styles.

H'mmm, sounds like a study.

Dana

[GaryKelly]

Maybe if they were soft enough for you to be able to distort them (by squeezing, for example), just like squeezing the hosepipe would affect the flow of water through it.

One of the reasons Boehm flutes became possible is the advancement in engineering which permitted rigid thin-walled flutes to be made. To make a flute from wood with the same wall thickness as a modern Boehm was just far too much work, and the result would be very, very fragile.

A standing wave is called that because, without wishing to sound daft or partronising, it doesn't travel. In the hosepipe analogy, if you were to step on the hose and 'pulse' your foot up and down, those 'waves' of pulses would travel along the hose and out the end. They'd be travelling waves.

In a flute, when you play a note, the air within vibrates backwards and forwards, so the air isn't travelling along the flute and out the end. And because the vibrating air column is moving parallel to the walls of the flute (the way water moves through a hose), and because the air isn't travelling anywhere (unlike the water in the hose), there's negligible energy transferred into the flute walls, thusly the flute walls don't affect the sound...

[GaryKelly]

I've never seen a study that was done this way.

Aye, and there's the rub. In the famous experiment debated here some months back, the test using concrete, silver, and copper (I believe) was severely flawed: They used an identical delrin headjoint and fitted it to each of the 'flutes', and the 'player' was only permitted to blow the open C-sharp. Not much of a test!

What they should have done was made identical flutes of each material, dimensionally correct replicas of each other. That would've made the science a bit more credible if nothing else.

[Dana]

In a flute, when you play a note, the air within vibrates backwards and forwards, so the air isn't travelling along the flute and out the end. And because the vibrating air column is moving parallel to the walls of the flute (the way water moves through a hose), and because the air isn't travelling anywhere (unlike the water in the hose), there's negligible energy transferred into the flute walls, thusly the flute walls don't affect the sound...

H'mm. I must be imagining things when I feel a flute vibrating in my fiingers? Somehow, I don't think so. Also, anyone that regularly sits down-wind from a flutist , i.e. to their right will tell you that there is certainly some air that comes out the end.

Dana

[GaryKelly]

H'mm. I must be imagining things when I feel a flute vibrating in my fiingers? Somehow, I don't think so. Also, anyone that regularly sits down-wind from a flutist , i.e. to their right will tell you that there is certainly some air that comes out the end.

No not really. There's no air coming out of a loudspeaker, but if you stand close to one (let's say a nice big one on stage), it *feels* like there's air coming out of it. There isn't. It's the vibrations in the air you feel, because the air is moving back and forth (that's what sound is). If the air from your lungs was flowing out yer lips, into the emb.hole of the flute, and out the end, you wouldn't have a tone, or a flute, you'd have a pea-shooter.

The buzzing one feels playing flute is thanks to the tone-holes... you're feeling sympathetic vibrations from the main air column inside the flute, 'cos the tone-holes are 'connected' to it.

[Jack Bradshaw]

Used to work with the older machinable ceramics...they were fired after machining and had significant shrinkage which had to be taken into account. There are newer ones that are directly machined...I have some around here but havn't tried it yet (unappealing gray color) These did not have a particularly "nice" finish...I'm assuming they could be glazed on the outside though, if need be.

There are Boehm flute heads available in ceramic.

There are (or were ?) a number of slip-cast simple flutes...the "Reliable Brothers" were supposed to have been the most consistantly in tune.

[Nelson]

Julie, the walls would have to be as soft as finger tips. You feel the vibration in your finger tips. Therefore, sound energy is being lost to the flute and it makes a difference (wee difference) in the sound. The French flutes with holes in the keys, probably make a difference, I do not know how much the pads absorb and cause a destinguishable difference in the sound. But the engineers who design flutes know. They know all these things ad nausium. They are not going to advertise these things. If I were selling religious icons, I would not suggest to the Christian Fundamentalist that two things can not occupy the same space.

By the way, a traveling wave is two waves traveling in opisite directions on top of each other. If you think of a wee skier on a long string skiing along. He can only ski in one direction. That is a traveling wave, like in the ocean. Now have a wave on the string going in the other direction. The two make the string bob up and down like an instrument string. One can think of an instrument string as a traveling wave in each direction. A wee skier can not ski on a standing wave, she just bobs up and down.

My friend John Coltman said it probably makes no difference. It does make a difference. I am having a cocobolo flute made. I know that if the craftsman made it out of delrin, it would sound exactly the same. I love wood flutes. But I also have an M&E that I throw in be back seat with kids and dogs. Many people on the site have attested to the M&E sounding just as lovely. In the sun it gets hot to touch. I hate to see my friends who play flute get bamboozeled by flute makers. If a maker does not know that a boxwood and delrin flute, made exactly the same, will be acustically indistinguable (he would have to make the delrin one egg shaped inside because boxwood gets that way), he should. I would write a book explaining all this in non-mathmatical ways, but as John Coltman says, enough people do not want to know.