Experiences of the session?

[OnTheMoor]

(hint: their hockey team hasn't won the Stanley Cup since 1967)

[Roger O'Keeffe]

As I read Peter's post, I was thinking, "that's not a session he's describing, it's heaven!". Then I came to the killer news at the end.

Oh dear. We knew the country had lost its soul in the last ten years or so, but I still hoped there were some vestiges surviving, Asterix-like, in remote parts of Clare. Apparently not.

[peeplj]

Well, Peter, if you're ever in the area I hope you'll sit in on a session.

You might be surprised at the music that gets played up in these old hills. There are some good players up here, whether or not they've ever recorded or are a "known name."

As for negative experiences with sessions, I've never had any.

As for negative experiences with trad musicians, the only place I've ever had any are on these boards. However, even here the positive experiences, and the friendships formed, most of the time to me seem to outweigh the other kind.

I started this thread specifically in the hopes that some positive experiences would get shared, and that new players who read these boards would not be intimidated out of trying to visit a session if they ever get a chance.

I would say on the whole this thread has been very positive, and I found your own fond and somewhat melancholy recollections to be most welcome as well.

Peter, I'm not a bad guy and I really don't think you are either, though at times neither of us should be proud of how we come across online.

Do you know of any good reason for the antagonism that's grown between us? I do not, and would really prefer peace.

--James

[Roger O'Keeffe]

Do you know of any good reason for the antagonism that's grown between us? I do not, and would really prefer peace.

--James

Probably the absence of accompanying body language to qualify the bare words.

[Baglady]

Peter,
What a poignant post. This has been a year of such change and loss.

There was a session here that had been running since the 70's and at one time was very vibrant. It has in the last few weeks, I hear, limped into an unmarked grave made less sad because of the existance of more than one enjoyable session but sad none the less.

Also, another of our favorite pubs had to close it's doors. Dubbed 'the most authentic' by local pub experts (the elbow bending kind), it was too small, dingy,and smokey. But we miss elbowing our way into a seat or past the bar to get to the loo. The same publican has opened a newer, bigger pub but we still jam ourselves into the back of the smokeing area for some reason. Trying to recapture that 'something' I guess.

[djm]

Peter, you're depressing us all. I am just reading the book you recommended on ITM that includes stories of the sessions at Gleeson's, and already they are no more. Obviously it is now incumbent on you to tell us where the next authentic session is so we will have something for our itinery if we ever get over for a visit.

djm

[buskerSean]

One part of so called session rules I have NEVER seen in my limited experience is the oft written 'sit at the bar with your instrument until asked to join in. Every session I have ever been to in England or Ireland, all the musicians pile in at different times and sit right on down, regulars and newcomers alike. I have found that weather i have pipes, whistle or bodhran under my arm, that I am expected by all to go and sit with the musicians straight away.

Although at piping tionol when top pipers are going for it, i certainlly sit way back and listen, I don't think John Rooney and Gay McKeon would have been happy to play along with my pedestrian piping. Maybe this 'rule' applies more in Ireland (where I have only been once for a month) where many sessions are comprised of top players.

[Crysania]

Well, I've been to three different sessions, fairly regularly at each for several months. So I'll include notes on each of them...

--do the musicians seem to be playing a definite list of tunes in a predetermined order, or are they playing tunes or sets of tunes in no definite order?

No definite order at all three...at each, however, there are certain tune sets that seem to always be played together and everyone generally knows what's coming up next in those cases. But except those tune sets, things are played in a fairly random order.

--do the musicians all know each other or does there seem to be new faces from time to time?

A little of both. At each of the three I went to, there were regular faces, but a variety of other "new faces" showed up from time to time...some who moved to the area and were going to become regulars...and others just passing through.

--do one or two players seem to start (or name) most of the tunes, do they take turns, or is it just the next player with a tune in his head?

Pretty much everyone gets to call tunes, or indicate they're going to start one in some way. At one of the sessions, everyone reads from music, so someone usually says "How about tune X followed by tune Y?" and everyone finds it, and away you go.

--do most of the players seem to be on the same general level of playing, or is there a wider range of skill and ability?

There's been a good variety...at two of the three sessions, I was one of the few newbies to the music...most had been playing it for years, some even decades. I first started going to sessions in May of 2003...after only playing the music for a couple months. And no, I didn't stick out like a sore thumb...I had ornaments and the rhythm down and as long as I could see the barebones outline of the tune I could play it ok. I've come a long way since then, but I've gathered it's odd for someone new to jump into a session like that.

--does one musician decide when it's time to go home, and the session end all at once formally (maybe with a special tune), or do players slip away as the evening progresses?

At two of the sessions, people just filtered out...but everyone was usually gone by a certain time. At the session I go to now, people pretty much pack it in at 7pm...and there's a song everyone sings at the end (though I don't remember it now...I've just started going to this one).

--is the style of playing more bouncy, more driving, or mixed from tune to tune?

Depends entirely on the playing...but at two of them, it was much more driving, though it can differ from tune to tune.

--how fast are tunes played?

It depends. There are just some tunes that want to be slower and others that want to be faster. Sometimes the tunes get faster and faster as the night goes on...until people start pushing beyond their endurance speed level.

--is there a preponderance of one time of tune (i.e. reels), or is a wide variety played?

Pretty good variety...though odd things can happen. I was once involved in an hour-long jig set...it just happened...after about 5 or 6 tunes people started deciding that we should go as long as we can. It finally got derailed when I snagged a book from a fiddle player who I had no idea was reading from the book (he knows hundreds of tunes...but apparently he randomly decided to start one from the book that was being passed around)...he lost the tune, and it ground to a halt. Oops.

--what day of the week does the session usually fall on? what are the starting and ending times?

Session #1: Tuesdays...started around 7:30-8ish, went to around 11pm
Session #2: 3rd Sunday of the month...2-5ish
Session #3: 1st and 3rd Sundays of the month...4-7pm

Other sessions I went to more than once at varying points? One Sunday a month around 3-6ish...and another one on Sundays from about 6-9ish or so. In other words...there's a lot of variety!

--if you were visiting a session, did you play? a few tunes or most? how were you recieved by the other players?

Yep I played...usually just a few tunes. I was generally received well, even though I had music with me. Generally, when they saw the music, they expected a rank beginner...and wanted to start a tune at "my" speed...they always seemed to be pleasantly surprised that even though I needed the music (my memory is CRAP), I fit in well.

--if you have a steady session you attend, what is the attitude towards newcomers playing with the session? (Note that "newcomers" just means "new to your session," not necessarily "beginning players.")

The one I currently go to always seems thrilled to have new people show up, especially if they play wind instruments (this session has a lot of fiddlers, mandolin, and guitar players...very rare for a whistler or flutist to be there). And if you can play, they're even happier.

--what venue(s) does your session play in? pubs? coffee houses? homes? resteraunts? libraries? outside? inside? etc...

Current one is in a pub/bar. The other sessions I've been at have been at other pubs and coffee houses. I once even played a session in the mall...yep, right out in the middle of the mall, because the coffee shop wanted us there for some reason. It was very strange.

--are the sessions of which you have experience primarilly "open" or "closed"?

Open.

--what are the mix of instruments played?

Depends on the sesson, again...at the first one I regularly attended, we had one awesome pipe player, one really awesome bodhran player and the occasional other bodhran player, a flutist or two, a whistle player or two, a few guitars/bouzikis, the occasional mandolin and banjo, and a bunch of fiddlers...that session even had a hammered dulcimer player that showed up. At the second session I went to regularly, we had a pipes, 1 or 2 fiddlers, a flute/whistle player or two, a couple guitarists, and me (the whistle player). Current one...lots of fiddlers, guitarists, a keyboard player, some mandolins and banjo, and now whistle. It's a little strange being pretty much the ONLY wind player at a session. But it's fun...I hate the sound of two whistles together. lol

So phew...what an answer!!

~Crysania

[Guest]

Peter's post is both encouraging and sad. I used meet a crowd like he described but none of them were international recording artists. Still they could lift the roof off of the rafters. That's Ireland.

They are most of them all gone to greener pastures and I am certain they there Scatter The Mud or Donovan theO' Donovan's sets --

But times pass Peter, and folks go on to other things. Thats the nature of great talents and great music when combined, or as my grandfather used say, great elements.

There is one thing, as Dev used say, that I utterly disagree with Peter about that seems to be all the rage these days, and it is this, if you were under the impression that American 'plays' aren't remarkable you'd be making a terrible mistake. But OC I don't think thats what you meant to say.

The comments about Arkansaw reminded me yet again how long old traditions survive out there in the woods. Its not so much that great music is in them thar hills IN Arkansaw, but that there is always great music in the hills any place you go. I recall visiting a relative out in the middle of noplace - Peter ahem - and to my utter surprise nearly every neighbor about them had hanging in the house either a fiddle with no strings to it, or one all ready to play. But in those bad times you'd need a very good reason to be trying to start a 'session' or as we called them a 'house dance'.

Because we were almost in Co Leitrim a flute player would not be hard to find, since even the dogs and cats there play the flute - or so they said.

Having collected a few tunes in Arkansaw I can attest to the excellence of the musicians but not at Irish music. The best of that I heard there were off-time Classical Violinists playing Celtic tunes for fun. Sounded great but not like I am used hearing it.

The only encouragement I could offer to the obsessionist is to play at home instead of in bars - get so good at home that you are asked out to play house dances, then you'd be surprised who will come a knocking for you to play for them.

One last final remark I picked up from an old box player I used listen to, you'll play better with your eyes opened because you can see the drunk comming to fall on top of you.

Slan!

[Chiffgirl]

I had the good fortune to play at a session in Eugene, Oregon for a couple of years. The folks up there at Sam Bond's Garage were wonderful and welcoming--they saw me lurking around too shy to play (even tho' I'd been playing at home for 2 years), invited me in, gave me a list of their usual tunes, invited me around for tea and tunes--absolutely wonderful bunch of people. Sometimes we'd get flaky types (it was Eugene, after all!) who would come in and play something godawful, but we were a welcoming lot--we even had an old fellow we called "Sergeant Pepper" because of the suit he wore--he'd come in and shake a kid's toy shaped like an apple that made a slight "bonging" noise. I spent a dubious hour one time learning "the theory of the apple" with Sergeant Pepper, who also liked to get up and do strange, loopy dances on the stage behind the session musicians. For the years I was there, our session leader was an accordion (piano) player named Jeremy--a great guy who now lives up Seattle way. We had some personalities! Sometimes they would clash, but a session is a living organism, and usually, I think, self-righting. It was a pretty big session (great for intermediate players!)--about 8-12 people usually. Now I'm down here in San Diego, and I'm flabbergasted by some of the unwelcoming sessions down here. I've tried at both the House of Ireland and the Blarney Stone (where I did indeed bring in my whistles, only to sit at the bar, view the dynamics between bar patrons and players, and get up after a beer and hit the damn road) and found both environments less than welcoming. I'm a pretty non-invasive type, too, so I'm not quite sure what the deal is there. The most fun I've had was at the Ould Sod on Tuesday nights (anyone coming to town should go there and check it out)--it's a very small session and so I felt a little too shy to put my two cents in, but the folks are very welcoming. Same thing goes for the new beginner's session here in town started by Mike Eskin--welcoming and nice. I do long for the old days in Eugene, tho'--a place where all levels are welcome, the main priority is making music with other people as best we can, and you might actually hear a song or two in the mix. I often worry that in America our search for "tradition" becomes a weird game of hierarchies and cliques. To my mind, the bottom line about "tradition" is making your own damn music with friends and neighbors (some of whom may, frankly, suck at playing, but might get better) rather than letting your tastes be dictated by BMI or Sony. The fewer people who view the word "tradition" in terms of the "strictly traditional" (now what the hell is that, folks? Really?) and in terms technical virtuousity, the more people we might have playing (and enjoying themselves, which I always figured was the point) and the more sustainable sessions we might have.

[feadogin]

Now I'm down here in San Diego, and I'm flabbergasted by some of the unwelcoming sessions down here. I've tried at both the House of Ireland and the Blarney Stone (where I did indeed bring in my whistles, only to sit at the bar, view the dynamics between bar patrons and players, and get up after a beer and hit the damn road) and found both environments less than welcoming. I'm a pretty non-invasive type, too, so I'm not quite sure what the deal is there. The most fun I've had was at the Ould Sod on Tuesday nights (anyone coming to town should go there and check it out)--it's a very small session and so I felt a little too shy to put my two cents in, but the folks are very welcoming. Same thing goes for the new beginner's session here in town started by Mike Eskin--welcoming and nice.

Hi Chiffgirl,

Have you been to the Field? I grew up down there, and that's where all my old buddies play. Sometimes they can be a little shy of newcomers, because I know they have had some bad experiences with obnoxious players, but if you go a few times and get to know them, they are really nice and welcoming. If you happen to go, tell them Justine said hello.

I'd agree that the Ould Sod is a good one, too. It's been small, too, the times that I've gone, so you might like the Field a bit better if you just want to stay in the background.

Good luck and I hope you find the right session for you! Maybe I'll see you down there some weekend.

J.

[Guest]

Now I'm down here in San Diego, and I'm flabbergasted by some of the unwelcoming sessions down here. I've tried at both the House of Ireland and the Blarney Stone (where I did indeed bring in my whistles, only to sit at the bar, view the dynamics between bar patrons and players, and get up after a beer and hit the damn road) and found both environments less than welcoming. I'm a pretty non-invasive type, too, so I'm not quite sure what the deal is there. .

This thread needs sticking at the top of the page! So here I go with some badly needed comments in addition to what has already been said about US sessions.

By and large I notice esp in the bigger urban areas folks with lots of time and money at hand, embarking on total domination of the Irtrad scene, ie they have Pipes Fiddle and Flute plus anything else thought of as 'key' elements, and they tend to get the best tuition available. Course this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the real Irtrad which grew up in dirt poor homes in bad times in Ireland and often with nothing more than a home made TW.

Funny thing, I just now tuned into Clare FM and heard - no surprise - the same ould sh*t goes on in Ireland today as used to happen 40 years ago. A few kids get the best tuition, the best support and the best exposure to what a well heeled few protray as Irish Traditional Music - live recoreded or otherwise. But OC that isn't it at all. It never was. So today you can still meet people from the back end of Cork or Roscommon who DONT know a thing about Clare music who play totaly different tunes and have totaly different style.

American sessions then ape the CCE model, one or two over prepared experts and the rest better sit down and shut the f*** up and lap it up because they are eejits.

My theory is that here Clare standards and methods are followed by the rich spoiled few who BTW close the door for the rest and it is a bitter reward that Irtrad sessions are unpopular. A sad but true fact, last week going out for a wander through the back-end of town in the midst of wild rock n roll bands in virtualy every building where I could hardly hear my self shouting, what did I find but an acoustic 'ethnic' gathering where you could barely get inside the door. It wasn't even vaguely Irish!

The writing on the wall?

I think so. The public out here have been Clared to death and I guess I am one of them.

A good night of potwalloping with a merry bunch of modest floor stomping fiddlers - sure, but NOT I am ashamed to say playing Irish music. Those days are gone.

So to all ye wannabe USA bound Irtrad experts/performers here is a bit of good advice, learn to sing, and leave yer dooojeens at home.

[Tyghress]

--do the musicians seem to be playing a definite list of tunes in a predetermined order, or are they playing tunes or sets of tunes in no definite order?[/quote]

Common beginning and ending tunes but in between its pretty much a mix of old and new tunes that strike the lead melody people's fancy. Tunes and sets fall in and out of favor over a period of time. If someone calls something out, it will be played.

--do the musicians all know each other or does there seem to be new faces from time to time?

Mostly we're known to each other, but someone new shows up and three weeks later they're a regular too. Most of us know each other only from session.

--do one or two players seem to start (or name) most of the tunes, do they take turns, or is it just the next player with a tune in his head?

One or two players usually start the tunes, even if someone else suggests the set. Otherwise there would be mass chaos because one side of the group can't hear the other side usually, so a core group that has a strong melody line, and can keep together with tempo, usually start all tunes. Often, though, in between sets someone will play around with a tune, and someone else will join in, and then the rest of the group falls in. These usually fall apart after one tune and never become a full set. Lastly, during many solos (to my knowledge only done by professional musicians) during the last tune they'll call for everyone to join them.

--do most of the players seem to be on the same general level of playing, or is there a wider range of skill and ability?

HUGE range in skill. Professionals, adept amateurs, beginners, and rank beginners.

--does one musician decide when it's time to go home, and the session end all at once formally (maybe with a special tune), or do players slip away as the evening progresses?

Session starts Wednesdays at 7:30 and goes formally until 10:00. Often it goes on after that too, in a smaller format.

--is the style of playing more bouncy, more driving, or mixed from tune to tune?

Driving....way driving....too driving sometimes. But there are a few slower tunes like waltzes or marches from time to time, and at sometimes early in the evening the tempo is less frantic. And a few times a year an attempt is made to rein it back, which works for a few weeks, then we're off and running again. This is one of my pet peeves. (the other is the preponderance of nonmelody instruments, their players all trying to be heard above everyone else).

--how fast are tunes played?

See above

--is there a preponderance of one time of tune (i.e. reels), or is a wide variety played?

Mostly reels followed by jigs. Every evening we'll do a set of slip jigs or slides, maybe a mazurka set or marches...one or two sets of polkas and a few songs.

--if you were visiting a session, did you play? a few tunes or most? how were you recieved by the other players?

In all the sessions I've visited, I played a tune or two -- no more than that --in half of them, and sat out the rest. Of all the ones I played at, only once did someone say that I shouldn't have joined, and only once did someone else comment that my playing wasn't up to snuff. At every other location the comments were VERY warm and supportive, even though they knew I was a beginner and shaky about playing in front of strangers. At three of the sessions where I didn't play I was asked by people who had heard/seen me play at another session why I wasn't joining in. Total of about fifteen different sessions in USA and Ireland.

--if you have a steady session you attend, what is the attitude towards newcomers playing with the session? (Note that "newcomers" just means "new to your session," not necessarily "beginning players.")

Newcomers are flat out welcomed...some more than others. Newcomers with bones or bodhrans are casually ignored by anyone other than bones and bodhran players because there are so frickin many of them. Someone at my regular session took to calling them the IBP (interchangeable bodhran players). If you play a melody line, people are more likely to make a point to talk with you after the session. If you can't play well enough, but show that you're trying (ask the name of a tune, call for a set, ask for people's names, say something like 'I'd really like to play XYZ because I've been practicing it all week') you'll fit in much better than the person who makes a point of tuning and twiddling all night, but never shows that they have a real interest in the music. If someone shows up three weeks in a row they're accepted as 'regular' and people make an effort to learn their name, get an email address, and chat casually.

--what venue(s) does your session play in? pubs? coffee houses? homes? resteraunts? libraries? outside? inside? etc...

Brewpub and local Irish clubs...sometimes outdoors for the clubs. There are also private sessions in homes.

--are the sessions of which you have experience primarilly "open" or "closed"?

The ones out in public are mostly open to all...but there are two sessions in the area that are closed and I consider them to be more 'entertainment' than a session.

--what are the mix of instruments played?

Two to six fiddles, a concertina, an accordion, a box, one or two whistles, two or three guitars on a good night (six to eight on a bad one!), occasionally a flute, pipes, banjo, mando, harp. And drums. Way too many drums.

[Caj]

--do the musicians seem to be playing a definite list of tunes in a predetermined order, or are they playing tunes or sets of tunes in no definite order?

Almost always in no definite order.

--do the musicians all know each other or does there seem to be new faces from time to time?

Occasional new faces. Never been to a session where a new face wasn't welcome. Tho I have been to sessions where a new face got old pretty quickly (someone deciding to play random counterpoint because he doesn't know the tunes, etc.)

--do one or two players seem to start (or name) most of the tunes, do they take turns, or is it just the next player with a tune in his head?

Usually, someone emerges as a leader. People occasionally jump in nervously if nothing is happening or they don't feel like they're getting air time. On occasional occasion, a session will become strictly organized, e.g. taking turns round-robin.

--do most of the players seem to be on the same general level of playing, or is there a wider range of skill and ability?

Wide range.

--does one musician decide when it's time to go home, and the session end all at once formally (maybe with a special tune), or do players slip away as the evening progresses?

There's usually a couple people good enough to wind down the session by leaving. Newbies want to play, but when they suddenly become the only melody instruments in the room....

--is the style of playing more bouncy, more driving, or mixed from tune to tune?

Energy varies from session to session, depending on the group. I've heard people who just couldn't play a good stiff polka to save their lives---comes out like a Carolan tune.

--how fast are tunes played?

1 measure per second is not usual for both reels and jigs.

--is there a preponderance of one time of tune (i.e. reels), or is a wide variety played?

People try to diversify. "Geez, we've been playing all reels, let's do something else."

--what day of the week does the session usually fall on? what are the starting and ending times?

All the regular ones I been to were Tuesdays, Wednesdays, or Thursdays, circa 8:00pm to past 10:00pm.

--if you were visiting a session, did you play? a few tunes or most? how were you recieved by the other players?

Yes, I was typically invited to play, made friends, played some tunes. No big whoop, as long as you don't barge in.

--if you have a steady session you attend, what is the attitude towards newcomers playing with the session? (Note that "newcomers" just means "new to your session," not necessarily "beginning players.")

Newcomers are welcome, but are expected to follow the basic etiquette of hanging out with a group of people.

Session rules aren't so harsh or elaborate as people think. It's just like any other gathering of people: you don't sit down in two strangers' conversation and join in, without even introducing yourself. The problem is that a session is a foreign-enough experience, different enough from a poker game or a knitting circle, that newcomers don't realize all the usual rules apply.

--what venue(s) does your session play in? pubs? coffee houses? homes? resteraunts? libraries? outside? inside? etc...

Various sessions: pubs, restaurants, coffee houses, homes. Always inside.

--are the sessions of which you have experience primarilly "open" or "closed"?

Normally Open. Heh-heh: "is this thing Normally Open?" *BBZZZZZT* "YEEARHGH!!!"

Caj

[SteveShaw]

"My" session occurs once a fortnight on a Friday night. It takes place in a pub which has a long history of supporting traditional music: when I first started going in the early 90s there was a long-established folk club there. That ended about eight years ago, but by then a hard-core of three of us wished to keep playing. After flirting with one or two other venues we ended up back here, but this time we had a recognisable "session" set-up rather than a folk club set-up. Over the next few years the session expanded in terms of numbers taking part in a most haphazard way. To cut a long story short we were soon having five bad nights for every good night. The problem was that anyone could come and sit in. We had no rules about that, written or unwritten. We were nice guys. We had jazz and rock guitarists (gimme strength), a recorder player, weird "singers" of pop ballads, four guitars at once, people who'd borrow my bodhran and torment us with it all night (I never, repeat never, take it any more), guys turning up with extremely loud melodeons who "played" English country dance music - I use the word "music" advisedly there. This next is a sweeping statement but I don't care. The less appropriate the musician for our session (judged by who I hear you say!), and the less talented, the more they display session bad manners such as playing over everyone else, wading in without regard for whether it was their "shout," and generally being thoroughly unmusical. Bloody big egos and probably consequently very small in an unmentionable department half way twixt navel and kneecaps. A couple of years ago I "had a word" (ruined my evening, I can tell you) with one guy who was systematically ruining our session every week. He didn't come again, and word gradually got around (probably to the effect that I was Hitler). That hurt at the time, but the effect of that fortified us - gave us a clearer vision of what we needed to do to ensure a good evening both for us and the people spending their hard-earned cash at the bar. Anyway we now have a really enjoyable session - and, believe it or not, we are capable of welcoming newcomers. More often than not they are not too good, but at least now we have an unspoken but strong ethic of what our session should be and I think this is picked up and respected by newcomers.

I can sit here and read lots of stuff from people complaining about not being welcomed. You may not, with respect, know the half of what's gone into making that session work. You may not understand the years of building up and sheer "tradition" that have gone in to making that session a success. If you painstakingly have to prove yourself before you're welcomed, are you so surprised? I think it's a good thing myself! I've seen newcomers almost single-handedly empty a pub, because they thought they were "welcome," i.e. no-one actually had the guts to tell them to shut up!

And just in case anyone thinks that I'm some kind of smug fiddle- or flute-playing chap who'd be welcomed wherever he went - my instrument is the HARMONICA for Pete's sake!

Cheers!

Steve