WTT: When is a D NOT a D?

[mvhplank]

Well, yeah, you missed a step--her music has to be transposed

No, I think you missed my point, or I was not clear enough. I was complaining BECAUSE that needs to be done!!!!! A royal pain, that. I just don't understand why some weirdo got it in their heat that music and/or instruments should be in anything other THAN concert pitch. THAT is what baffles me.

A C clarinet, eh? It's a trick, right?

No, really, a C clarinet. Looks shorter than the "regular" one. Here's the first Google link that popped up, but I bet you can find one for less than $4k!

http://www.music123.com/Buffet-RC-Prest ... l=proclar1

I'm sure the whole transposition thing was driven not by composers (who often have to pay someone to do the grunt work of writing out the parts in different keys) but by stubborn musicians who refused (like me) to learn new fingerings when they changed instruments.

M

[Jeff Guevin]

I win! "A" isn't a pitch, it's a convenient letter that symbolizes a pitch. Which pitch it symbolizes has changed historically, but my proposed perfect musical notation, with its superior Hertz-based flava, is built to last.

Of course, I forgot about dynamics, so I suppose I'll have to add a z-axis for that. And perhaps color coding for articulations. Lyrics, of course, will be in Esperanto.

[colomon]

No, I think you missed my point, or I was not clear enough. I was complaining BECAUSE that needs to be done!!!!! A royal pain, that. I just don't understand why some weirdo got it in their heat that music and/or instruments should be in anything other THAN concert pitch. THAT is what baffles me.

It's quite simple. Making instruments transpose makes it vastly easier to pick up a different instrument and play it. So an alto sax player can effortlessly shift to playing tenor sax, for instance. A tenor sax is a fifth lower than an alto. If every instrument was notated in concert pitch, then the alto sax player would have to relearn every note on the horn to play tenor. But because both are transposing instruments, there is no need to relearn any fingerings.

I'm pretty sure that the basic fingering patterns are the same on all saxes, flute, clarinet (in one register), and D whistle -- all fingers down plays the note written as D. The actual note played may be C, G, or D.

Since probably 95+% of all playing for these instruments (excepting whistle) is either written explicitly for that instrument or played by ear, this is a clever way to make it easy to play more than one instrument.

The real curious question is, how did it end up that several of the commonest instruments are Bb instead of C? I'm guessing there is an ugly historical accident involved....

[Rosee]

Yeah, that way you can pick up any instrument in a family and play the written notes. I'd always kind of assumed instruments transposed so that music could always be written with the best range in the middle of the staff and not put as many ledger lines in, but that's just me.

And to confuse things even more for you, due to the difference between note positions on treble and bass clefs, and the fact that this is the same interval that Eb instruments differ from concert key, it's possible for Eb treble clef instruments to play music written for C bass clef instruments. The notes are in the same positions, you just have to add your own key signature. (And oddly, I think all bass clef instruments are in C. It seems you only transpose if you play a higer instrument)

[mvhplank]

I win! "A" isn't a pitch, it's a convenient letter that symbolizes a pitch. Which pitch it symbolizes has changed historically, but my proposed perfect musical notation, with its superior Hertz-based flava, is built to last.

Of course, I forgot about dynamics, so I suppose I'll have to add a z-axis for that. And perhaps color coding for articulations. Lyrics, of course, will be in Esperanto.

M

[mvhplank]

(Note the passage of almost a week since my last post.)

I just got my brand-new copies of Grey Larsen's two books and started right in on the Tin Whistle Toolbox.

Imagine my surprise (not to mention feeling of vindication) that he considers whistles in keys other than D to be "transposing instruments" and we should think of all-fingers-down as "D", no matter what the key.

Whew! Now I just have to try to internalize all those "mode" thingies. Actually, I had been wondering if anyone could adequately explain it to me ... be careful what you wish for, I guess. I may jump ahead to the section on how to breathe "musically," and not just when I run out of air.

And it's clear that I need to be practicing a LOT more than I have been. He's absolutely right about those neural pathways and muscle memory. I've been preaching that particular scripture in tae kwon do for years now.

M

[glauber]

Whew! Now I just have to try to internalize all those "mode" thingies. Actually, I had been wondering if anyone could adequately explain it to me ... be careful what you wish for, I guess. I may jump ahead to the section on how to breathe "musically," and not just when I run out of air.

this request is almost as likely to generate a long thread as posting sound clips for beginners to learn from.

Modes: more or less like "moods". In the old days (Middle Ages and Renaissance) people were more sensitive to the different moods of melodies. Starting with the Baroque period, these things were greatly simplified and music theory became more harmony-driven.

So today we have 2 modes/moods: major and minor. We think of major as strong, happy, masculine, etc, and minor as sad, delicate, feminine, etc. The other modes are variations in degree of these. The ones important for Irish / pennywhistly music are:

(1) Major-ish:
Ionian (our official major mode, as in "G major")
Mixolydian

(2) Minor-ish:
Aeolian (our official minor mode, as in "A minor")
Dorian

The notes you use determine the mode.

Most Irish music that's in a minor key is actually in Dorian. One example is Julia Delaney's.

Mixolydian is something that you see in older tunes, especially pipe tunes. Mixolydian tunes have the "feel" of a minor seventh chord, if you know what i'm talking about (e.g.: D7). One example: Banish Misfortune.

(i'm sure i'm forgetting something -- no problem, this post will soon be buried under a flurry of other responses).

g

[glauber]

If you're looking for a more theoretical explanation, a quick google returned these 2 very interesting pages:

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/~cyrus/ORB/orbmode.htm - a good introduction that relates the modes to Gregorian chant.

http://www.engr.mun.ca/~whitt/bass/mode_origins.html - history of the modes.

[Jeff Guevin]

Mixolydian is something that you see in older tunes, especially pipe tunes. Mixolydian tunes have the "feel" of a minor seventh chord, if you know what i'm talking about (e.g.: D7). One example: Banish Misfortune.

glauber, I think we'd say that it has the "feel" of a dominant seventh (D F# A C), not a minor seventh (D F A C). In the notation I'm familiar with, those are D7 and Dm7, respectively.

It's a pretty weird-sounding mode to my ears, because I generally want the resolution to G.

[glauber]

Mixolydian is something that you see in older tunes, especially pipe tunes. Mixolydian tunes have the "feel" of a minor seventh chord, if you know what i'm talking about (e.g.: D7). One example: Banish Misfortune.

glauber, I think we'd say that it has the "feel" of a dominant seventh (D F# A C), not a minor seventh (D F A C). In the notation I'm familiar with, those are D7 and Dm7, respectively.

It's a pretty weird-sounding mode to my ears, because I generally want the resolution to G.

Yeah, i'm sure i have the names mixed up, because i learned this in Portuguese. Thanks!

I like following up Dmix with Ador tunes, because Ador is related to G, but it's a softer resolution this way. For example: Old Bush to The Chicago.

[IDAwHOa]

The book I just got, The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory, does a pretty decent job of explaining modes. I will not try to duplicate or summarize here though.

[burnsbyrne]

Ai caramba!! I thought for a minute there that I was begining to understand this stuff! But noooooo. I played guitar for almost 30 years and guitar music is written one octave higher than it sounds in order to keep it all in the treble cleff. Is that transposing? Now I have one question for the woodwind players. Let's say I need to play a garden variety note that sounds like one of the C keys on a piano. The alto sax player plays it. OK. Now the tenor sax player tries to play the same note. Does the tenor use the same fingering as the alto to play that C? I have to think not. So, which of these instruments plays the same notes that are on the piano players music? Or does any of them?
I'm going to take some Tylenol now.
Mike

[mvhplank]

Hoo boy!

Look what I found--a transposing chart http://allencole.tripod.com/instkeys.htm

and instructions http://allencole.tripod.com/transpose.htm

So, which of these instruments plays the same notes that are on the piano players music? Or does any of them?

The instruments that call themselves "C" instruments (and, confusingly, the D whistle but not the C whistle, assuming you think of all-fingers-down as "D") will play the same notes the piano does.

M

[IDAwHOa]

Here is a link to a related discussion for a while ago. Thought it might help someone:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=16027

[SwtCaro]

I started in 5th grade on Bflat clarinet, and went to Eflat Alto Clairnet in 7th grade. The pitch is lower, but the fingerings the same. I couldn't have done it if I'd had to learn all new fingerings for the Alto. So, when I started playing whistle I learned the fingerings for a D whistle, and I think of those notes as the names for all other keys of whistles too. I just "think" in D regardless of the whistle key. Thought everybody did that until I tried to explain to my music pastor why I needed to transpose for something on a B whistle, and he looked at me like I was from another planet. Maybe I'm more in the minority than I thought. Long story short, yes--if you want to be playing along with your wife's music, you need to have a c whistle and think of all fingers down as D. Then she can play her D and you can play your "D" and it's the same tone. Clear as mud?

Caroline