WTT: When is a D NOT a D?

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IDAwHOa
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WTT: When is a D NOT a D?

Post by IDAwHOa »

Last night we were goofing around, with the instruments. Me on my low D and my wife on her clarinet.

I played a D and asked her to play the same WRITTEN note.

ACK!!!! :o Not the same note. At first we thought it might be tuning, but it was so far off.

So I played a D on our keyboard, it matched my whistle perfectly.

What we discovered was that when the clarinet plays what is written as a D on the staff it is a whole step off from the keyboard and whistle. We are both baffled by this.


Why isn't a D a D, or a d even. Why do they have to make things so complicated? I am sure there is some illogical explanation for this, or some secret society membership that is required to "understand."
Last edited by IDAwHOa on Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by glauber »

It's called transposing instruments. Clarinet, sax, trumpet, trombone, recorders, most wind instruments, except for the flute. Some of these instruments sound Eb and the others sound Bb (and alto recorders are F) when you play the note that's notated as C.

I'm sure this system was invented by the devil...

I'm not sure why this madness happens only with wind instruments. It may have something to do with marching bands.

In the old old days (Renaissance), music was notated so it fit within the 5 lines, and the players were supposed to transpose it to the notes that would fit best in their instruments.
Last edited by glauber on Tue Jul 27, 2004 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Jeff Guevin
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Post by Jeff Guevin »

It's called a Bb clarinet because when the clarinet plays a written C, it sounds like a Bb. Thus its D sounds like a C. Similarly, an Eb alto sax plays a written C as an Eb.

They do this so you can play different pitches of instruments without having to learn new fingerings.

This is, I believe, quite different from the reasons for having D, C, or Bb whistles. But I should be working instead of thinking about that, so I'll stop there and pretend I've helped.
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Post by vomitbunny »

Get a C whistle and play along and your D and hers will sound the same.
My opinion is stupid and wrong.
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Jeff Guevin
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Post by Jeff Guevin »

vomitbunny wrote:Get a C whistle and play along and your D and hers will sound the same.
But only if you pretend you're playing a D whistle. Dammit, get back to work Jeff!
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kevin m.
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Post by kevin m. »

Yeah,the old 'non -transposing' versus 'Transposing' instruments' P.I.T.A.
Don't worry,your not alone-when George Martin was doing the orchestrations for Beatles songs in the 60's,Lennon and McCartney had a job getting there heads round the fact that an 'E' on Guitar wasn't the same as an 'E' on sax. or Trumpet.
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Post by littlejohngael »

When is a D not a D?

When you take your pen out and turn it into a B before showing you Dad your report card! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by Colin »

glauber wrote:It's called transposing instruments. Clarinet, sax, trumpet, trombone, recorders, most wind instruments, except for the flute......
...actually, the trombone is considered a non-transposing instrument ...
except (for some bizarre reason) by the British Brass Band movement
(I played in Leith Silver Band, Scotland, as a teenager back in the 60's).
It was a relief to progress onto another wind intrument that was MUCH
smaller - a low D whistle.
Perspective is a wonderful thing.

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Post by Redwolf »

That must drive people with absolute pitch up a wall. We have a guy in our choir with absolute pitch, and he nearly breaks into tears when our choirmaster tells the organist to transpose the music...says it's like trying to be a simultaneous translator! :lol:

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Post by colomon »

glauber wrote:It's called transposing instruments. Clarinet, sax, trumpet, trombone, recorders, most wind instruments, except for the flute.
Actually, like the flute, the standard trombone, oboe, and bassoon are all in the key of C. There are weird versions of these instruments that do transpose, like the English horn and the small key of F bassoon. (And weird versions of the transposing instruments which do not transpose, like the old C tenor saxes.)

I would say the physical reasons for the different sorts of instruments are exactly the same -- that is, it makes just as much sense to build a Eb tenor sax as it does to build a low G whistle. But because historically people didn't bother much with notating Irish music, we're not really in the habit of thinking them as transposing instruments yet.

If you really want to confuse classical musicians, just talk about the different whistle keys. That is, assuming everying normally reads whistle music as if playing a D whistle, then the D whistle is a C instrument, the C whistle is a Bb instrument, and so on and so forth.....
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IDAwHOa
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Tell us something.: I play whistles. I sell whistles. This seems just a BIT excessive to the cause. A sentence or two is WAY less than 100 characters.

Post by IDAwHOa »

Jeff Guevin wrote:
vomitbunny wrote:Get a C whistle and play along and your D and hers will sound the same.
But only if you pretend you're playing a D whistle. Dammit, get back to work Jeff!
I had to read VB's and Jeff's comments a couple of times before I finally figured it out. Just pretend the C ( XXX XXX ) is a D on the written page and let the instrument figure out the rest.


Oh, Oh, I LIKE IT!! A reason to get a Low C whistle!!!! I am on an Alba Low C tour and was thinking about dropping out. NOT NOW!!!!!
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Post by mvhplank »

Peter Schickele (a.k.a. P.D.Q. Bach) had an interesting program on his Schickele Mix radio show about transposing music and instruments in different keys. If you visit http://www.schickele.com/mix/ you may be able to track it down on a radio station's archive.

You'll be looking for Program Number 142: “What You See Is Not What You Get” — a program about transposition.

Alas, the programs are neither for sale as recordings nor are new programs being made. Gosh, I learned a lot from these!

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kevin m.
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Post by kevin m. »

[quote


Oh, Oh, I LIKE IT!! A reason to get a Low C whistle!!!! I am on an Alba Low C tour and was thinking about dropping out. NOT NOW!!!!![/quote]

I think that you will be in for an interesting,and rewarding,musical experience.
I have an Alba low 'C',and whilst it isn't my most played whistle,it is a blast to play!
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Post by chas »

glauber wrote:I'm not sure why this madness happens only with wind instruments. It may have something to do with marching bands.
Transposing for woodwind instruments makes it so that the note in the same place on the G clef has the same fingering (say, on a C flute or a Bb or A clarinet). If I'm not mistaken, the viola clef (C clef with middle C on the second line on the staff) makes the fingerings the same on the viola as on the violin for notes in the same place on the staff (even though they have different names). Not transposing technically, but the same effect.
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IDAwHOa
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Post by IDAwHOa »

So, instead of using the FREQUENCY of the note as the reference they established the FINGERING as the priority?

Seems totally backwards to me.

By the way, this thread will lead to another question I have.
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