"I don't play them. I just make them"

[NicoMoreno]

How shall the maker hear how his work sounds if he himself cannot make it sound that way?

I stand by this...

I also believe I have answered it already... however:

Rocket Scientists don't fly the rockets, eh? Well, who does? A--> someone who is qualified to do so. Upon which, they tell the rocket scientists what to change.

How the heck do you know that your whistle can sound/play a certain way if you can't hear it played/sounded that way? (ie, I don't think the maker himself HAS to be able to do it... but someone does!)

Peter Laban has mentioned many times his search for the "perfect" whistle. Does that mean he can make one? I don't know... but he can sure play them... If a maker teamed up with him, they'd have a great whistle at the end.


So to answer my question: one way is to have an expert player play it. And then listen to the criticism.

[jolsen]

Well, as a variation on a theme...I don't make them, I only play them.

So how in the world can you play effectively without knowing how they're made?

This reminds me of my last job, where we made a golf game for one of the big-name game consoles. It turns out that only something like 10% of the team actually played golf recreationally. The simulation of the physics of a ball bouncing on grass was great. The rules were implemented correctly. It was challenging and fun to play. The reason? Lots of research, and lots of "building" skill.

If you know what some skilled player wants, and have the technical skill to build it, then you can get the job done as well as someone who has both the "build" and "play" skills. But it does take access to content experts to do it effectively as a team effort, as has been mentioned a few times as we've taken turns beating the dead horse.

I decided one day that playing a whistle would be a fun thing to learn, and there weren't many around locally so far as I knew. The first whistle I made was great, until I made my second one, which made the first one immediately play horribly. Then the second one was great, until I bought a cheap one. Then the bought one was great until I found a better way to make a new one by tweaking it into unplayability, and they all have now been overshadowed by the last one which is now my current favorite. Of course an experienced player may still snub their nose at it, but I consider that part of the learning curve, and part of the research necessary to get better at it.

All I can say is it's a good thing you don't have to be good at something (making or playing) to enjoy it, because I started at the bottom of the ladder on both scales this year. A couple friends have been polite enough to hint they would like one for Christmas this year, even if I haven't quite got the whistle-making skills all nailed quite yet.

Once I think I have something decent, I'll probably send it off to an expert or two with a request to be shredded and roasted over hot coals because of all the things that are wrong with it. (please include enumerated list for maximum roasting effect)

[fancypiper]

I think I speak for engineers everywhere when I say I resent your mentioning my profession in the same sentence with "lawyers."

Q. Why are lawyer's graves dug 12 feet deep rather than the normal 6 feet?





A. Because, deep down, lawyers are really OK....

[dwinterfield]

Yup!! I work with lawyers and engineers. Happily I'm neither.

[Loren]

I've stayed silent on this thread up until now, since I believe I fit into the "I don't play them I just make them" category. Well I do play them, but my making is much better than my playing. I do not believe that is necessary to be the ultimate Whistle player in order to create a fine instrument. I've known plenty of people that work at the Martin guitar factory, but most of them can't Struggle through the first bar of stairway to heaven. Does that mean Martin guitars are less valuable because the makers don't play them very good? I say hell F*censored*en no! It doesn't have a damn thing to do with it. An appreciation for music and good crafting skills, along with a steady hand, free time, and lots of patience is what it takes to make a whistle. You have to know your way around a saw and files, and a drill press and dozens of other things to make a whistle. Anyone can stuff a half assed carved piece of maple dowel into the end of a copper tube cut a few holes in it, and call it a whistle. The quality isn't in the materials it’s in the Builder. The builder that takes the time to create a work of art in every single whistle he/she creates. You have to be mechanically inclined as well as having good logical thought processes... and a High IQ doesn't hurt either oh say around 137 or so... I just picked that number out of the air I swear it.... or maybe I heard it somewhere before. If you can’t sit and look at something for hours on end and "figure" out what the problem is, you are better off being a lawyer... or maybe a Televangelist...

Rocket Scientist Don't fly rockets
Military Jet Builders Don't fly the jets the build
Vegetarian cooks don't eat the Meatatarian meals they make from time to time
Does that mean the Rockets won't fly as good?
The Jets not perform as they should?
Or the Filet Mignon tastes not as succulent?

Do I even need to answer those questions? With a logical thought process, a monkey could deduce that it is not necessary to be an expert at using something to make that something. You just need to have a working knowledge of its mechanics:
Whistle:
Air Blows over fipple, through wind way gets split by the blade. The whistle goes TOOOOOOTTTT! Finger holes decrees and increase the volume of air inside of the bore to increase and decrease the tone of the sound. Like adding to or removing the liquid in a Bottle in order for the pitch to change. Mechanically speaking the Tin Whistle is a relatively easy instrument to understand... It's called a simple flute for a reason here people!
Slan
Justin

Uh huh, yes, it's all so very simple. :roll: But then that's what happens when you don't know what you don't know.........



Loren

[Loren]

Duplicate post.

[amar]

now loren, don't be such a partypooper.

[Loren]

Sorry Amar, just being real here.

Loren

[amar]

real? in this place?
no, i hear ya..

[BoneQuint]

I do not believe that is necessary to be the ultimate Whistle player in order to create a fine instrument. I've known plenty of people that work at the Martin guitar factory, but most of them can't Struggle through the first bar of stairway to heaven.

Yes...but they didn't design the guitars, they just build them. Would you say being a good player would help a designer refine the finer points of his whistle? A good cook can get away with making a dish without tasting it...but you could never create a new dish that way.

[Cyfiawnder]

I do not believe that is necessary to be the ultimate Whistle player in order to create a fine instrument. I've known plenty of people that work at the Martin guitar factory, but most of them can't Struggle through the first bar of stairway to heaven.

Yes...but they didn't design the guitars, they just build them. Would you say being a good player would help a designer refine the finer points of his whistle? A good cook can get away with making a dish without tasting it...but you could never create a new dish that way.

Actually after working at Martin Guitar for a year your DO get to design your own guitar. And have a say in it from start to finish. I'm nto saying that input from other players isn't neccisary. I'm sayign that BEING a great player isn't a prerequesit for making a decent instrument.

[The Sporting Pitchfork]

Any of you kids heard of David Monette? He's probably the greatest trumpet maker alive (and if you don't believe me, take it from Art Farmer, Winton Marsalis, and several of the world's top orchestral players who exclusively play his instruments), he's probably done more in the past two decades to advance trumpet design than what's been done in the previous two centuries, and, by his own admission, he's a pretty crap trumpet player.

He does, however, know an awful lot about physics. Which can be pretty useful when you're designing musical instruments.

I once attended a lecture by Mr. Monette on the physics of trumpet making and after going on a good 40-minute diatribe on how the top makers of the late-19th and 20th century had made all sorts of goofy errors in their designs (for example pairing trumpet bodies designed to be played in Bb with mouthpieces designed for instruments in A, etc.), he said at the end "and what is most shameful about all this is that it too a crappy rock trumpet player from Minneapolis to figure this all out." He didn't do much playing of his own instruments, but he did have the principal trumpet player from the Tel Aviv Philharmonic with him to help things out.

Another example-- this time from the field of Scottish smallpipe/ Border pipe design.

There are presently two very skilled makers who are at the head of the pack when it comes to making these instruments. Both are based in Scotland. I will not name any names, although for those who know anything about the Scottish piping scene, it'll probably be pretty obvious from my description. One maker is not a particularly outstanding player (he is, however , pretty good on mandolin) but he checks his work rigorously at every stage of the design and production process with high-falutin' computer equipment. He checks all the soundwaves and the intensity of the vibrations for each note until he arrives at a solid, in-tune instrument. The other maker had a reputation as one of Scotland's foremost competing pipers before going off on an eclectic career characterized by jazz fusion and Cape Breton-style music. He's a top notch player, though due to a wrist injury doesn't often play out much anymore. Anyway, when I observed him in his workshop, he hardly touched a tuning device. Just tuned the pitch note (in this case A) and did the rest by ear. And in the end, after a good 1-2 weeks of playing in, he had a top notch instrument. Different methods of doing things, but both produced very high quality results.

For the record, I'd be happy to play an instrument made by either of the two gentlemen described above, but if pushed, when it comes to pipes (or whistles, for that matter), I think I would go with someone who's also a prodigiously talented player over someone with a lot of computer gadgets.

[talasiga]

My comments are premised on
the whistle maker him/herself not being deaf.

You do not need to be an expert player
to appreciate fine music.
(Otherwise everybody would need to submit
their audio clip before they could buy tickets to a concert
)

How shall the maker hear how his work sounds if he himself cannot make it sound that way?

Last edited by NicoMoreno on Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:51 pm; edited 2 times in total

The maker can listen to a player.
(unedited reponse)

[talasiga]

After the playing is over,
With the making
Comes the best music

[Azalin]

After the playing is over,
With the making
Comes the best music

It pains me to admit your post is really funny