Piano accordians and uilleann pipes...

eskin · Post by **eskin** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:50 am

So is it just me, or do piano accordians and uilleann pipes just not mix? I often play for dancers with a piano accordian player, and as far as I can tell, his reeds are setup with the primary stop at equal temperment, and the second stop just a tad higher. For volume, he'll use both.

When I play my spot-on just intonation F# against this high and higher F# it just sounds awful, and one can extrapolate for the rest of the scale.

What I'm curious about, not being familiar with button accordian or concertina tuning, is this a characteristic just of piano accordians, i.e. are button accordians and/or concertinas tuned using just intonation in a particular key? It seems like when I've played with button accordian or concertina players, the unison intonation is much better.

Thanks for any info,

Michael

djm · Post by **djm** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:03 pm

I only know one button box player, and he tunes his own boxes. I have not noticed him to be particularly out of tune, but by the carry-on from him I take it that tuning these beasts is not a fun task. I have heard that most players do not tune their own, but prefer to have this done by an expert, or just don't bother. I don't know any piano accordian players personally, so I don't know if they do it themselves or not.

For any kind of box (concertina, button, piano) I can see that there is a great degree of skill required to play them well at speed. I know that the more skillful box player will adjust his volume so as not to drown out others in a session. What I object to is the sound of a box itself. It seems to be so fuzzy and indistinct as to swallow up the sound of any other type of instrument around it. (just my impression, of course)

djm

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:06 pm

I think it is also possible that particular accordian is just out of tune...period.

glands · Post by **glands** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:08 pm

Button box and pipes really sweet!

Pipes and piano accordion? Not!

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:31 pm

Piano accordeon is set up to play in more keys than your average box, s owill be equal tempered. I play a lot with a concertinaplayer and have no tuning problems. I play regularly with Jackie Daly and if a C box is around he'll play that so I can put down the whsitle take out the pipes. No problem. Kitty Hayes and myself also recently spent a night playing with Jackie Small on the C box. That was actually very nice and ver ywell tuned.

The Sporting Pitchfork · Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:44 pm

I was playing with a button box player here in Portland a couple of weeks back and I was amazed at how well the two sounds blended. It was like an "uilleanncordian" or something.

There's a piano accordion player who also stops by the session from time to time, and while I much prefer playing with the button box, I had a couple of tunes with him and nothing sounded particularly discordant.

Bill Reeder · Post by **Bill Reeder** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:56 pm

My wife plays piano accordion and as long as she uses only one stop we seem to blend together just fine. When she adds other voices, the tuning gets real wet and the dissonance begins to appear. Chord work on the left hand really causes musical and marital discord and it's simply not done when pipes are being played. Personally, I get along fine with pipes and accordion whether piano or button.

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:20 pm

Niall and Cillian Vallely's CD, Callan Bridge, is to me a great example of the wonderful sound that the concertina and uilleann pipes can make together. Wow. I wouldn't have thought about it prior to listening to that CD.

I accompanied box player Paddy O'Brien and uilleann piper Michael Cooney a number of years ago at J. D. McGurks in St. Louis. It was a wonderful couple of weeks, and I recall it being very difficult to concentrate on my job while listening to the two of them. Their two instruments together almost seemed like one sweet voice. Magic!

Paul Reid · Post by **Paul Reid** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:24 pm

Cillian Vallely and his brother Niall have an excellent recording out that features Uilleann pipes and concertina. Niall is a great concertina player. It is almost freakish the way they play synchonized together - almost like one instrument - I can barely tell them apart sometimes. I really like the combination, 'though I prefer pipes with low whistle, flute or with fiddle.

[edit] Looks like Joseph and I were on the same wavelength - spoky! [/edit]

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:32 pm

At last year's Tionol, I think I recall Cillian mentioning something to the effect of each brother recording in a different country at a different time. I may have that wrong, but I'm sure that is what I heard.

djm · Post by **djm** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:10 pm

JES wrote:Niall and Cillian Vallely's CD, Callan Bridge, is to me a great example of the wonderful sound that the concertina and uilleann pipes can make together.

This album is a perfect example of what I find with a lot of recordings where a box is playing with another instrument, in this case UPs. The UPs are totally subjugated and might as well not even be there. A total waste of money if you bought the CD to hear UPs.

djm

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:20 pm

Really? I have no problem hearing Cillian. The concertina isn't really a loud insrtument. I have heard Cillian's Froment set up close, and it would dominate any concertina I have ever heard.

Maybe it is the way the levels were set on the master recording, concertina being turned up and all that. Sorry you didn't like the CD.

The Sporting Pitchfork · Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:03 am

djm wrote:
JES wrote:Niall and Cillian Vallely's CD, Callan Bridge, is to me a great example of the wonderful sound that the concertina and uilleann pipes can make together.
This album is a perfect example of what I find with a lot of recordings where a box is playing with another instrument, in this case UPs. The UPs are totally subjugated and might as well not even be there. A total waste of money if you bought the CD to hear UPs.

djm

Hmm...I don't recall it being all that bad. I'll go have a listen to it and let you know how I feel in the morning.

Now Paddy Keenan's "Na Keen Affair" album on the other hand...that was seriously bad. No fault of Niall (or Paddy) though, just some seriously bad mixing and mastering. Paddy sounds like he's being recorded from inside a shoebox on that one...

boyd · Post by **boyd** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:36 am

Does the story on that one not involve the master-recording getting lost [wonder how?]

, so they had to use an inferior quality one??

Boyd

Thorpe · Post by **Thorpe** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 9:14 am

Freaky moment!!! Was listening to the CD as I opened up the post!!

Piano accordians when playing more than a single reed e.g the master reed, are tuned so that the notes that make up the sound are fractionally flatter and sharper so it is evident that there is more than one note sounding. This could be what your experiencing.

I have to disagree with DJM, i think you can easily distinguish between the 2 intsruments on the recording. Its a very good album.

Dan