Newbie & Tonguing: I know it's a minefield, but I need h

[E = Fb]

I didn't understand how to tongue because I didn't understand the goal. The goal is to have the music flow. Once I understood that I then started taming myself. Unlike German Um-Pah bands, you don't want to lay down of lot of rhythmic emphasis. Other instruments can take care of that.

[brewerpaul]

Since you not only play Irish trad, it sounds like you play some of it. So here are three short pointers on that, entirely my opinion and quite possibly unorthodox:

Learn to play without any tonguing at all. It's not how you want to play ultimately, but it's a great exercise for making your finger movements precise.

Don't tongue repeated same-pitch notes. Use cuts or taps to separate those (put cuts on the strong beats). (Exception: tongued triplets, but I wouldn't worry about those for a while.)

Even if you tongue a lot when playing Irish trad, don't tongue down-beats or accented notes. Slur those.

Yeah, what Bloomie said.
It's really not all that different from recorder tonguing. A bit of subtltey is called for.

[StevieJ]

Hi Noel!

Unlike German Um-Pah bands, you don't want to lay down of lot of rhythmic emphasis. Other instruments can take care of that.

Of course you don't want to sound like an oompah band, but to me bringing out the rhythm is perhaps the single most important aspect of playing Irish dance music - and vital in many other kinds of music too.

Solo playing is still the heart of the Irish tradition, so to be a good player you cannot rely on other instruments. You have to be able to do the whole job with the melody line. Good whistle players may not tongue every strong beat, but anyone who thinks they don't lay down a lot of rhythmic emphasis should go back and listen again - possibly for a few years...

In another topic, Fb said:

I'm not recommending you ignore ornamentation, but if you did ignore it, it wouldn't matter a whole heap. Having wasted too much time on this issue myself, my recommendation to you is to learn to play tunes first, ornamentation second. If you ultimately end up playing in public it will be in sessions, and few will notice whether you ornament or not.

People need to get past the idea that the most common devices referred to as ornamentation are optional decorations for the purposes of showing off - in fact they are essential parts of the musical language and you need them to make sense of the tunes. Seen like this, how can you possibly "waste time" with basic features of the language? To me, basic "ornamentation" (cuts and taps/strikes) is best incorporated into your learning of tunes almost as soon as you start blowing into a whistle.

I don't know what kind of sessions you go to, Fb, but in any session that isn't made up entirely of people who don't know what the music is about, the musicians (and many of the punters) are going to notice <i>exactly</i> what you are doing and not doing. I wish more beginning players would realize this!

Steve

[John S]

Just a word about cuts and tips/taps you have to start off playing these slowly but rhythmically, remember that the start of the cut or tip coincides with the start of the note you are cutting or tipping.

John S

[Monster]

This really is a minefield! At least we can say there's plenty of room for disagreement!

Some whistle players make more use of the tongue for articulation, and others make more use of the fingers. I will have to admit though I do find it a bit odd when a whistle player claims to never use the tongue. To me it's just weird, incomprehensible, almost like a plan the Republican party would hatch.

If there are no Republicans where you live please forgive the outburst, if there are and you are sympathetic to them, then just replace the word "Republican" with the word "Democratic" thank you.

[Jeff Guevin]

Cool, now I have a new signature.

[Monster]

Uh Oh.

[kkrell]

What I need to find is a definitive tinwhistle discography somewhere or other, and to methodically try entering it into the library's catalog search, to see what I can get my hands on. Anyone know where I can look for such a discography?

http://www.theflow.org.uk/disc/disc.html

Look for the entries primarily marked "W" for Whistle. The Flute stuff is great too, of course.

Kevin Krell

[TonyHiggins]

Let me add to the confusion by suggesting yet another approach. Back up to the tune itself, independent of instrument. What are the demands of the tune in terms of rhythm, phrasing, feel, etc (deliberately vague). How can I express those qualities? Maybe they invite or discourage tonguing, heavy or light ornamentation, stacatto or legato playing, or whatever. You may be inspired by someone else's rendition or you may hear it in your head a certain way and want it to go that way. Good ideas come from a lot of listening. Nothing else will substitute.

A few things to listen for: obviously, the rhythm. Is there a heavy emphasis on the first beat with a lot of lift? How is that accomplished? Loudness? Tonguing? Ornaments? Duration of note? (What have I left out?)

Phrasing: the trickier part. Listen for a different cadence riding on top of the basic 1-2-3-4 or 1-2-3 rhythm. Think of it like the cadence of a rhyming poem. A limerick is a great example. It has long and short lines that reflect back to each other. That's going on all the time in Irish music. Listen for it, then ask how it's accomplished. Hint: mainly by tonguing and ornamentation to create pauses or emphasis at important parts. Also, by repetitive use of ornaments in key places to create repetitive rhythms within the basic 1-2-3-4. And, variation on that for interest. So maybe, the beginning of a phrase starts with a roll, and when the phrase comes around again, it's again introduced by the same roll or something different for variation, but something to emphasize and possibly reflect back on the first time around.

This may sound off topic, but I feel strongly that learning to listen to the elements that make up the rhythms and intracacies within the rhythms is the important start. Now, you can look at the options for effecting those sounds.

Generally, tonguing can be used to create the beginning of a new phrase (besides having other functions like creating a stacatto passage or temporarily altering the down beat for a measure or so- ie, going from ONE two three four ONE two three four to one two three FOUR one two three FOUR one two three four ONE two three four.) It makes a separation from a legato group of notes to another set. That creates a flow with breaks for new phrases or groups of notes that make up a musical sentence. (Think of the limerick cadence.)

Ornamentation can be switched off with tongued notes for variation. One time you start a phrase, you just tongue it. Another time, you might start with a roll or a cut or a slur. Whatever sounds good. Something for emphasis if emphasis is desired.

Side points: I notice different whistles sound different with the same tonguing technique. Also, you really need to record and hear how you sound. Surprises (good and bad) await.

I typed out a tonguing exercise in abc format for a workshop I did by using bold type for the suggested tongued notes with a variation on the repeat that created a distinct difference in the feel of the tune to get the experience/self feedback. It looked goofed up when I tried putting it into the post and on my website, so if you want, email me and I'll send you a word file. I'll post the tune on clips this weekend. (Leitrim Jig)

As far as where to put your teeth and your tongue and your gums, etc, by all means, keep them in your mouth. My teeth are crooked, so my technique probably won't work for you.
Tony

[Flyingcursor]

OK. Regarding some other things. Bloomfield mentioned not to play taps on the beat. I'm confused about that since in 6/8 time you're mostly always playing 8th notes, therefore every one is on -a- beat. Does the not tapping on -the- beat refer to an accented beat? And my next question is why don't you want to do that?


Also, I've taken the slowing down advice to heart. I'm going back to my too short tune list and going to try to re-learn everything. I've been working on Haste to the Wedding as of yesterday.

[Bloomfield]

OK. Regarding some other things. Bloomfield mentioned not to play taps on the beat. I'm confused about that since in 6/8 time you're mostly always playing 8th notes, therefore every one is on -a- beat. Does the not tapping on -the- beat refer to an accented beat? And my next question is why don't you want to do that?

A jig is in 6/8, but there are two beats to the measure: ONE-two-three FOUR-five-six, ONE and FOUR being the beats. (you actually count a jig "one[da-da] two[da-da], one two, one two").

So the first and the fourth eigth notes in a jig bar (or equivalent quarter notes) are on the beat. I suggest using cuts to accent those notes, but never say never, right? Why? Cuts are clearer and stronger than taps, and if you are playing taps on the beat, you'll end up putting cuts between the beats which will probably end up sounding like you dont have your accents rights.

[Flyingcursor]

Ah. Thanks for that. What I was thinking of as an accented beat is just the plain 'ole beat. Now it's making sense.

[squidgirl]

Thanks, everyone, lots of good info for me to mull over.

Now I have a question about executing my cuts: They seem to sound most cut-like (least extra-note-like) when I barely remove my finger from the upper hole, making just enough of an aperture to break the air-column's vibration to a different tone for a moment. Is this cheating, or is this doing it right?

[colomon]

It's doing it exactly right.

[Monster]

I do find it a bit odd when a whistle player claims to never use the tongue.

Not that anyone here made that claim..mm. hey maybe I thought E=Fb was making that claim, I clearly didn't read right. Although my previous comment was somewhat oblique, (in my mind) it was directed towards E=Fb. I am so wrong sometimes that I scare myself!

Sorry that I made such an off base comment and dragged the good people of the Republican party into this.