Random thought how many tunes do people know by heart?

[BillChin]

I believe that the "average" session player probably knows 100+ tunes at the drop of a hat. That said, the average session player and the average poster on this board are two different animals. One definition of average is that half the players present at the session are better, and half are worse than the so-called average player. I remember my session poll, and about half of the responses indicated regular or semi-regular session participation. Non-session players probably know fewer tunes because they have little motivation to memorize tunes.

Kind in mind that Irish Tradition Music is an aural tradition. Sheet music and notation can only attempt to express the subtle rhythms, accents and ornaments of ITM.

To give another perspective, I attend a monthly music group, best described as a folk music group dominated by guitars. I estimate that the regulars there can rattle off about 100 tunes at the drop of a hat, some many more, some fewer. I believe that for people that get together regularly and play along when another person selects a song, learning tunes is part and parcel of active participation. Contrast this with people that mostly practice alone and perform solo if at all and it is no surprise that there is a wide, wide disparity.

I did find the poll options to be odd, because 20 is a relatively small number of tunes for a session player to know by heart. And like I said, perhaps as many as half the active posters on board participate in sessions.
+ Bill

[feadog39]

well, i probly learn about one a month and forget about one a month now. of course i never know which one i've forgotten so i don't worry about. in all, probably know 25 tunes. if i can play one or two tunes really well at any given moment, i'm pretty happy actually. the rest is icing.

[Wanderer]

Wanderer I beg to differ I feel that is not the case all the time just because you do not know 120 tunes by heart reflects nothing on the quality of music you produce. I feel their are other things than the amount of songs a player knows that dictates whether you are a "beginner and not an average player".

Duffy: I'll agree that the quality of your playing cannot be determined by how many tunes you know. If you know 300 tunes badly, you're still a beginner. However, your poll (though it is now deleted) made that distinction, not I. It had something along the lines of 10 or less was a beginner, and 20 or less was average.

The reason i feel strongly about this is i have played for a few years and untill recently never began to fully memorize songs. the reason being untill recently i played for myself just out of enjoyment know I am moving into more social aspects of playing. I understand what you mean by it affecting the poll in your terms. The poll was not really even created to be acurate just a rough estimate of the users who read it.

I still contend that while you can't really know how good someone is by how many tunes they know, that number of tunes you know can be an indicator of how far along you are with irish music in particular.

I'll concede that there are cases in irish music where someone could concievably be a wonder at playing while sight-reading sheet music. I don't really know any such people, but I'll concede it's possible. But I'll also submit that if such people exist, they're in the vast minority. And because of that, you usually can judge how long someone's been immersed in irish music by how few tunes they know.

So, while someone who knows 300 tunes isn't necessarily an advanced player, it's almost certain to me that someone who knows only 10 or 20 is probably (except in the rare instances noted above) just starting to get their feet wet with irish music.

[cowtime]

Remember, though, that having a tune committed to memory does not necessarily mean you can play it flawlessly or at speed. It may just mean that you're more acutely aware of your flubs.

Oh, I do love this post. By your definition I know LOTS more tunes!

Believe me, I am fortunately/unfortunately very aware of my mistakes. I'ts maddening.

[colomon]

If you are generous in the counting -- take all those I can play along with competently even if I cannot start them, include Newfoundland and French-Canadian tunes -- I probably know 500+. Given a minute or two to remember a tune once someone reminded I knew it, there are probably 300 I can start. And maybe 100 tunes that I feel I know well.

It's impossible to keep track of, really. You forget about tunes you don't play all the time, or forget how they go, or get them crossed up with another tune, or don't realize that you know the tune in the first plane, or figure it out by ear on the fly without realizing it's not a tune you've ever played before...

[irishduffy]

Wanderer the more you write the more i like you. the truth is as some said irish music is a oral tradition. And i agree im a begginer and proud of it i have at local irish festivals been shown up by kids under 10 years of age. And i feel your right by increasing your tune number you are becoming a better player. But my point which I was going for and I see you understand . someone knowing 10 songs in terms could be better than the man with 100. And your right no doubt that by playing from memory ornamentation comes out and what i'll call real music defined by a person comes out and creates a individual that irish music strives to create.

I understand both sides of this issue in, I as many play more than 1 insturment and on one know over 200 songs I can pick up and play, yet on whistle only 15. But because of the time I have played the whistle before learning tunes, I can read music and because I have played the song by sight so long I by nature add ornamentation while sight reading.

I only pray one day I will get to the level of over 100 i'll probaly have to get rid of some other insturment music from my head.

this is turning into a great post hope you can make sense of my rambling.

Wanderer keep posting when you see my name I love when people present their view without anger thats what makes this forum great.

[Jayhawk]

I think this is an interesting topic because it partially defines how we see ourselves. I know somewhere between 65-80 ITM tunes (inlcuding aires) - more like 55 or so session tunes. If you add in ragtime, pop, jazz, classical, etc., I'm probably in the low 100s.

I guess I always think of myself as an advanced beginner...I've been playing seriously about 2 years now, but playing around for over a decade. It's only been in the past two years that I started memorizing tunes by ear, and prior to that I only played off the written page.

ERic

[feadog39]

if quanitifying the amount of tunes you know is important at all, it seems that it would only be worth quantifying those tunes you have mastered. What does "mastery" involve? Well, one good criteria would be those those tunes you can confidently start/lead/play-on-your-own at a session where you are the average player (there are about the same number of blokes who are better than you as not). on this scale, i put myself at about 25 tunes that i've solidly mastered...

[feadog39]

well, perhaps about ten more if you get some guiness in me

[Wanderer]

Wanderer the more you write the more i like you. the truth is as some said irish music is a oral tradition. And i agree im a begginer and proud of it i have at local irish festivals been shown up by kids under 10 years of age. And i feel your right by increasing your tune number you are becoming a better player. But my point which I was going for and I see you understand . someone knowing 10 songs in terms could be better than the man with 100. And your right no doubt that by playing from memory ornamentation comes out and what i'll call real music defined by a person comes out and creates a individual that irish music strives to create.

I understand both sides of this issue in, I as many play more than 1 insturment and on one know over 200 songs I can pick up and play, yet on whistle only 15. But because of the time I have played the whistle before learning tunes, I can read music and because I have played the song by sight so long I by nature add ornamentation while sight reading.

I only pray one day I will get to the level of over 100 i'll probaly have to get rid of some other insturment music from my head.

this is turning into a great post hope you can make sense of my rambling.

Wanderer keep posting when you see my name I love when people present their view without anger thats what makes this forum great.

Well, we all start somewhere, and we all progress at our own paces. I can name a few folks on the board that have been playing for less time than I have, but I would consider better performers than me (based upon recordings they've posted). And generally. they know more tunes than I do as well.

In my own opinion, part of being a good irish musician is more than just learning a few tunes, even if you know them well. Irish music is like a language...and you can't really be fluent in a language if all you've done is learn "Where is the bathroom" from a tourist guide. The more you expose yourself to its vocabulary, both by learning tunes and listening to tunes, the more you come to understand the language; its rhythms, etc. Like a language, irish music has components...runs, ornaments, different riffs that are part of the style.

I'm just now starting to get to the point where I (rarely) can play a tune at session that I've never played before. Part of that is familiarity from listening.. I've heard a lot more tunes than I can play, and I've heard them a lot. I've made a point to try to attend session and really listen when I don't know the tune, rather than tap my foot anxiously waiting for a tune to come up that I could play. Part of that familiarity is from learning tunes...the more tunes you learn, and really know from heart, the more exposure you have to those component parts of the music, and the easier it is to play them in other tunes, even if they're transposed up or down the scale, etc.

I'd say that if you were a really good musician in another style, that might (but might not) shorten the learning cycle with irish music, but ultimately, to get good in the style, you gotta spend time listening and practicing. Generally speaking (though not not an absolute truth) those folks who spend more time expanding their understanding of the music are going to know more tunes.

I think BillChin has a good point...When I was newer to the music, and didn't go to sessions, I didn't know as many tunes. And whenever I stop going to sessions, I don't learn as many tunes. I think session players tend to expand their repertoire through positive peer pressure. If you hear a great tune, and all the other session players know it, you tend to really want to learn it too. And part of it's through the "osmosis" I mentioned above. Once you've heard a tune enough times at session, you feel you know it, even if you can't play it, and that really makes learning it easier.

Anyway, this is a long and rambly post. I'm by no means the expert..I just have my own opinion.

[irishduffy]

I love the way this post is getting to be so deep rooted. funny how I justed posted a random ideal, and the unique perspectives that people form off of that ideal are so insperational and allows you to look through anothers eyes and gain perspective on what they feel.

[tommyk]

I still contend that while you can't really know how good someone is by how many tunes they know, that number of tunes you know can be an indicator of how far along you are with irish music in particular.

Wanderer, yes, absolutely, but I must agree with irishduffy regarding the quality. It's all such a cyclic process (with whistle, but for me especially with flute): breathing place selection, ornamentation, changes in the states of physical muscle positions. Learning something new by learning a new tune transfers to increased possibilities on the old tune now.

One year ago, I knew about 16 or so tunes (two hornpipes, one jig, two polkas, three reels, two slip jigs, six and a half slower tunes or O'Carolan's, and three waltzes) on whistle, which I played in a band for several years. (In that band, I mostly fronted, sang, bodhraned, or rhythm guitared.) I'd ceased "Celtic folk" for six years, learning jazz and rock on the Chapman Stick and bass guitars. Boy, the theory I now realize I learned is serving me well now that I'm applying it. One year ago, I realized this "Celtic folk" was where my heart wanted to be. Now, after attending an average of 3 sessions a month for a year, I have, either under my belt or soon ready to fly, about 68 or so tunes (nine hornpipes, thirteen jigs, a couple marches, six polkas, sixteen reels, two schotishes, seven slip jigs, thirteen and a half [yup, same half!] slower tunes or O'Carolan's, and seven waltzes) on whistle and most of them I can handle on the flute.

My point is, if I can do it, anyone with the motivation and the time to put into physical memory can do it.

TommyK
"If it weren't for the smell of cat s**t and fish breath, they'd be Divine."

[GaryKelly]

Another nice thing is that after a while... somehow it finds its way into your fingers without you knowing how it ever got there.

That happened to me this weekend! I was noodling on the flute when suddenly out popped the A part of a jig... and just the A part I spent the next two hours scrabbling through my CDs and sheet music trying to identify it so I could play the B part too. I didn't find it. And then when I picked the flute up, I'd forgotten what it was I'd been playing and it wouldn't come back... Infuriating...

Oh I hope it's not just 'cos I'm getting old...

[jbarter]

I know lots of tunes. I know lots of names of tunes. Currently I'm working on which ones go with which.

[Azathoth]

...I've made a point to try to attend session and really listen when I don't know the tune, rather than tap my foot anxiously waiting for a tune to come up that I could play.

Now THOSE are words of wisdom.




Az