we gave Iraq back to them!!!

[blackhawk]

Nice try, bloomfield. Don't give up your day job.

Given how busy you are telling people they don't do enough abhorring, you are being remarkably flip.

And you're not?

Oh, and after some thought, it occured to me that maybe, just possibly, you truly didn't understand my initial reply to Az's post. I thought it was obvious, but sometimes I know I go too far around when I make a point. In very simple terms (the thread took off like a frieght train afterward), I was responding to Az's saying that Isreal should be disarmed. And my point was that if Irael were disarmed, it would be the beginning of a second holocaust. Within a month there would be no living Jewish people left in the region. That was my point, for those who didn't get it. They are surrounded by a 30 to 1 ratio of people who are dedicated to the death of Israel.

Az, I'm going to be too busy for the rest of the day to check out your links, but Saturday I'll try to give them a look. Thanks for taking the time to do the research.

[glauber]

What saddens me is that some seem to think that one atrocity validates others.

Amen to that. And funny how it cuts not only both ways, but four ways.

I was going to say that we think we can do just one more atrocity, and that will be the last one, i promise, but then i though better and i realized: it's only called an atrocity when others do it.

[Father Emmet]

Move over, pal, I'll share a few of those pints in honor of a great nation that has been a friend even when we weren't in the right.

That reminds me, Bush the Elder promised us all "A Thousand Pints of Light".
I've yet to see a drop of it!

[dubhlinn]

Getting back to Iraq,if I may...

Some years ago there was a song doing the rounds which concerned how the British Army came to Ireland to protect the Republican minority and were welcomed with open arms only ,in a short time , to be despised by the very people that they came to protect.
The song was called "Englands Vietnam".

Alas, I think that today we need a song called "Americas Ulster"..

Slan,
D.

[Chuck_Clark]

Getting back to Iraq,if I may...

Some years ago there was a song doing the rounds which concerned how the British Army came to Ireland to protect the Republican minority and were welcomed with open arms only ,in a short time , to be despised by the very people that they came to protect.
The song was called "Englands Vietnam".

Alas, I think that today we need a song called "Americas Ulster"..

The Soviet experience in Afghanistan may be more apt. The Sovs and their puppet government controlled the cities, at least to an extent, but like the Japanese in China, the hinterland belonged to the resistance.

The sad thing is that, however much we might decry Israeli violence in Palestine, and that he isn't putting it as diplomatically as some might like, Blackhawk is right in one very important detail. The overwhelming desire of the Arab Mideast is the destruction of Isael and the annihilation of its people. I suspect this is true even where official policy now denies it (Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority).

Under such threat, a unilateral cease-fire by the Israelis is tantamount to suicide. Whatever the truth may be, if the Paestinians truly WANT an end to the violence, and I personally doubt that they do, they have to stop shooting (and bombing) first. So - the bloodletting will continue until they run out of people stupid enough to blow themselves up in the name of superstition. Try as I might, I see no other possible outcome.

[jim stone]

The question has surfaced: Where is jim Stone?
A good question, a deep question...
I'm in Bloomington Indiana sucking up ITM this summer, which is plentiful
here. Wonderful sessions, Grey Larsen, lots of flutes.
The Boss and I have sublet an apartment here.
I'm right now in the Bloomington library, the only place
I can get online, so I'm only onboard for a few minutes
daily. Also I read a persuasive book that said that Buddhists
shouldn't talk politics, not right speech, almost as
bad as gossip (also frowned upon). Therefore I shall
lurk, which so far is still kosher, I think.

I post a current AP story, which strikes me as good news.
The end of it speaks to the discussion in the
preceding thread. Best to all, Jim

Jordan Willing to Send Troops to Iraq

By JANE WARDELL, Associated Press Writer

LONDON - Jordan's King Abdullah II said Thursday his country would be willing to send troops to Iraq (news - web sites), potentially becoming the first Arab state to do so.

The statement marked a major shift in Jordan's policy toward Iraq. Abdullah had initially refused to send troops.


In an interview Thursday with the British Broadcasting Corp. television "Newsnight" program, Abdullah said he wanted to support Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi's interim government, which recently assumed control from the U.S.-led coalition.


"I presume that if the Iraqis ask us for help directly, it would be very difficult for us to say no," he said during the interview in London. "Our message to the president or the prime minister is: Tell us what you want. Tell us how we can help, and you have 110 percent support from us."


There was no immediate reaction to Abdullah's comments, which will likely be welcomed by the U.S. government. It was unclear if the Iraqis would take Abdullah up on his offer.


"If we don't stand with them, if they fail, then we all pay the price," Abdullah said.


Abdullah said he had not discussed sending troops with the new Iraqi government.


"I would feel that we are not the right people," he said. "But at the end of the day, if there is something we can provide, a service to the future of Iraqis, then we'll definitely study that proposal."


Abdullah said he was encouraged by improvements in Iraq's security, but he acknowledged it was still the greatest problem facing the new administration. Jordan is dependent on Iraqi oil.


"I feel optimistic we have strong, courageous leaders in Iraq ... but the challenges that face them on security is going to be their major problem, and they are going to need everybody's help," he said.


Iraq borders both Jordan, which maintains close relations with the United States, and Syria, which staunchly opposed the U.S.-led invasion and occupation of Iraq.


Syrian Information Ministry official Ahmad Haj Ali has said that what the interim Iraqi government should do is strive to get the U.S. troops to leave.


As of the end of April, there were 33 countries in addition to the United States with troops in Iraq, including Britain, Poland, South Korea (news - web sites), Hungary, Italy, Japan and Australia. Britain commands troops in the south east of the country while operations in the central south are headed by the Polish.


Spain pulled its troops out earlier this year and Norway is also removing its small contingent of soldiers.


Despite the promise of assistance, Abdullah said he perceived Iraq as a "sideshow."


"The main problem that feeds on all the instabilities that we see in the Middle East is the Israeli-Palestinian problem," he said. "Until you solve that, then we'll never have the type of stability that the Middle East hopes for."

[Jerry Freeman]

Hi, Jim.

It's nice to see you. I noticed you hadn't posted in awhile and was wondering. Glad to know you're alive and well.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[Dale]

Hi.

Wow. I really wish we could try to keep these things in the Political thread.

If only I could move a thread and append it to another.

Dale

[Azalin]

Please Dale don't kill me, it's just that there's a very interesting article that came out today about the fact that the press and the news give the wrong information, or at least deficient information about the palestinians-israelis conflict.

I was saying in my last post that the press makes a big deal of palestinians blowing themselves up but you don't hear much about isreali killings... Well, this is exactly what this article describes:

<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 967.stm</a>


>>
They found that, in addition to "a preponderance of official Israeli perspectives", US politicians who support Israel were "very strongly featured" in news programmes, appearing more than politicians from any other country and twice as much as those from Britain.

It was about time that this has come to light - most people confuse Palestine with Pakistan

Sharif, Leeds


BBC users debate coverage
The report takes issue with a tendency in the media to present the problem as "starting" with Palestinian action, while Israelis were seen to be "responding" with actions that were explained and contextualised.

"There was very little discussion of the nature of the relationship between the two sides - that one [the Palestinians] was subject to military control by the other [Israel]," the report says.

Researchers also found a strong emphasis on Israeli casualties on the news despite the number of Palestinian deaths being considerably greater.

And the differences in language used by journalists for both sides were also noted.

"Words such as 'atrocity', 'brutal murder', 'mass murder', 'savage cold blooded killing', 'lynching' and 'slaughter' were used about Israeli deaths but not Palestinian," the report said.

"The word 'terrorist' was used to describe Palestinians by journalists but when an Israeli group was reported as trying to bomb a Palestinian school, they were referred to as 'extremists' or 'vigilantes'."
>>



Very interesting, indeed.

[glauber]

Hmm... vigilantes. Isn't this what the American Government keeps telling us to be? We must all become vigilantes.

[Azalin]

Hmm... vigilantes. Isn't this what the American Government keeps telling us to be? We must all become vigilantes.

Actually, in french vigilantes is the female version of vigilant, so women are being told to be vigilantes with guys, for example. It makes me very frustrated when a woman is too vigilante with me!

[glauber]

I hear you, brother!

[Caj]

Nevertheless, we have dismantled the idea that "a soldier or a warrior picks up his weapons and goes out to meet his enemy as a man."

Tell that to the American troops in Iraq who perfom combat patrols everyday. In the reality of modern guerilla warfare, the overwhelming majority of combat occurs head-to-head between soldiers with guns.

You are right, I massively oversimplified.

After all, we wouldn't even call it "guerilla warfare" if that was all people did on the ground.

Caj

[Tres]

Us and them, us and them. Maybe, one day, it will only be an US!

JP

That depends on "them" doesn't it?

Tres

[blackhawk]

>>
Israel radio said two Palestinians were shot dead in Beit Hanoun, in the northern Gaza Strip, in an operation to stop rocket and mortar attacks.

The Palestinians say one was a farmer killed while working in the fields.
>>

Hmmmm, Isreal killed a farmer? Well, palestinian radio must be lying, Isreal would never do that, because the country is civilized.

I'll see your farmer and raise you busloads of school children. (a poker analogy, if you're not familiar with it)

As to being civilized, yesterday the Isreali Supreme Court stopped construction of the "ghetto" fence (as Chris referred to it), citing "great disruption to Palestinian life" and "hardship." Wait, how can that be, since Isreal teaches their children a culture of hate, like you and Chris have pointed out? For that matter, why then does Israel allow Arabs to be part of the Knesset, if they have a culture of hate?

In this article here, Turkey, the new US ally, has been saying this:

<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 609.stm</a>

>>
Israel was "bombing civilians, killing people without any considerations - children, women, the elderly - razing buildings using bulldozers," he said.
>>

Yes, as I pointed out much earlier in the thread, the BBC usually is heavily anti-Israel in their articles, with no regard for truth. Thank you for illustrating that for me.

Now, an article that says how the occupation is killing the palestinian economy and driving them to poverty:

<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/376 ... 015.stm</a>

Ah yes, the BBC again. More of the same.

Blackhawk, how can you learn to love your neighbor when he's making you and your sisters and brothers hungry and poor?

Here, Israel kills 40 palestinians, mostly innocent people that were just there at the wrong time:

<a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 373.stm</a>

>>
At least 40 Palestinians were killed when the army last went in on an extended mission a fortnight ago,with several thousand left homeless.
>>

Neither you nor I were there, Az, so it's just as likely that they all had rocket launchers in their hands as your theory that they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Neither of us were there, and all we have to go on is a BBC article. Very unbiased. :roll:

Whatever, I could go on for hours and find more than 3000 dead palestinians, 90% of them being innocent people and babies and pregnant moms. So fu&$ it with what you're saying about Chris and I not caring about israeli babies getting killed, just open your freakin' eyes and you'll see that Isreal is killing a LOT MORE babies and pregnant women than palestinians will ever do.

Or at least you could find anti Israel articles that would say that. But the kind of national hatred you speak of wouldn't stop building their protective fence because of concern about how the Palestinians are being hurt by it. Nor would they allow Arabs membership into their governing body. How many Arab nations allow Jews to become members of their ruling body? Syria? Libya? Saudi Arabia? Oh wait, that's right....none of them are democracies with Supreme Courts and Parliaments.

OK, I'm done with this thread. I'm tired of it. I just didn't want to do you the discourtesy of ignoring all the time you took to write this post.