Got it in one, John.
Though I do have a Kirby vacuum cleaner which I shall shortly use in a series of tests on an ebony Potter, a boxwood Proser, a blackwood Wilkes, and a cocus Rudall to see which is the easiest to suck up, and on opening the bag which is in the biggest pieces .
If it would be any use I could illustrate darkened cocus, but that would not help in distinguishing it from rosewood, but from african blackwood,
which can be tricky visually to ordinary mortals.
As I have said the flutes tend to look a good bit darker anyway in ordinary sunlight.The object of the exercise was not to say that all or even most cocus flutes do look like this, but can do and so be confounded with rosewood flutes .A better guide to cocus / rosewood is the origin of the flute, I suspect.
AK
What Cocus Wood looks like.
Seriously guys!
I thought that somebody would reflect on my remarks on the sound of wood. I hoped that somebody would refuse what I said about the sound of cocus, saying: "You stupid ***, a cocus flute sounds entirely different than you said..."
Perhaps somebody may recommend some links where we can compare the sound of flutes made of different sorts of wood, but in the very same structure. Somebody may also post some short clips for sake of comparison. (Blackwood, Cocus, Rosewood and Boxwood).
What about that?
Bennet
I thought that somebody would reflect on my remarks on the sound of wood. I hoped that somebody would refuse what I said about the sound of cocus, saying: "You stupid ***, a cocus flute sounds entirely different than you said..."
Perhaps somebody may recommend some links where we can compare the sound of flutes made of different sorts of wood, but in the very same structure. Somebody may also post some short clips for sake of comparison. (Blackwood, Cocus, Rosewood and Boxwood).
What about that?
Bennet
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sturob
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Oh, Bennett, Bennett, Bennett . . .
Hmm. Anyone want to field this one?
We've had HUGE, SCATHING, emotional, dysfunctional arguments about this issue. Not necessarily with these players (meaning the folks posting on this particular thread), but definitely on this board.
Basically . . . hmm. A lot of people think cocus is a very "musical" timber. And that's hard to quantify. But, a bunch of people don't think the timber matters. And another group think that the player has a huge impact on the sound, more than anything else.
A big poster (well, she's not big, but she posts a lot? A prolific poster?) posted clips of various flutes a while back to demonstrate how they all sounded. The interesting thing is that it only really seemed to polarize us into two camps, those of us who thought she sounded better on Flute A, and those who thought she sounded better on Flute B. She herself thought she sounded better on B, and preferred playing B. I was one who thought, no question, she sounds a lot better on A, but I agree that flute B is probably superior to flute A.
So that's a tough question. I'm sure you'll be indulged by someone with soundclips of a cocus this, a blackwood that, a boxwood the other, but take them all with the biggest grain of salt you can find.
Stuart
Hmm. Anyone want to field this one?
We've had HUGE, SCATHING, emotional, dysfunctional arguments about this issue. Not necessarily with these players (meaning the folks posting on this particular thread), but definitely on this board.
Basically . . . hmm. A lot of people think cocus is a very "musical" timber. And that's hard to quantify. But, a bunch of people don't think the timber matters. And another group think that the player has a huge impact on the sound, more than anything else.
A big poster (well, she's not big, but she posts a lot? A prolific poster?) posted clips of various flutes a while back to demonstrate how they all sounded. The interesting thing is that it only really seemed to polarize us into two camps, those of us who thought she sounded better on Flute A, and those who thought she sounded better on Flute B. She herself thought she sounded better on B, and preferred playing B. I was one who thought, no question, she sounds a lot better on A, but I agree that flute B is probably superior to flute A.
So that's a tough question. I'm sure you'll be indulged by someone with soundclips of a cocus this, a blackwood that, a boxwood the other, but take them all with the biggest grain of salt you can find.
Stuart
Thanks again to Graham. What a hero he is !!!
I hope you are not all surfeited by them. There again, you don't need to look ! These show a range of the darker shades.
Quite right Sturob.It's mostly the art market, vanity, not having enough to do, and the like.
Apart from my new blackwood Wilkes Wonder I think the best flutes I have had have been a boxwood Rudall & Rose, Boxwood R.Potters and an ebony WE Potter .
It's all about how the individual flute is made and finished off.
I hope you are not all surfeited by them. There again, you don't need to look ! These show a range of the darker shades.
Quite right Sturob.It's mostly the art market, vanity, not having enough to do, and the like.
Apart from my new blackwood Wilkes Wonder I think the best flutes I have had have been a boxwood Rudall & Rose, Boxwood R.Potters and an ebony WE Potter .
It's all about how the individual flute is made and finished off.
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Aodhan
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So they don't call it a quarter pounder?BMFW wrote:Such deep seated knowledge of Star Trek is very worrying indeed. I bet you are one of these people who owns a uniform, one of those clicky, buzzy communicator things, a pair of pointy latex ears and a "How To Speak Vulcan" book. This sort of behaviour should not be tolerated - I have seen people committed to long term institutional establishments for displaying less obsessive behaviour - you should be ashamed.Aodhan wrote: Dr. Roger Kirby was the ex fiancee of Christine Chapel in the original star trek series (Season one, I think). He basically replaced himself with an android copy (Along with the prerequisite buxom blond android as well), and was planning to replace Federation leaders with androids.
Aodhan
Try to take up a more worthwhile pursuit, like memorising all the dialogue from Pulp Fiction and reciting it EVERY time you eat a burger. Hmmm, I've just realised I'm as bad as you!
No, in France, they call it a Royale. With cheese.
Actually, I have a decent memory for movie lines and things of that nature. I knew it was a Star Trek reference, so I googled "Star Trek Kirby". I don't have pointy ears, a buzzy thing (Unless you count my flute) and I have NEVER put on a star trek uniform.
But I do wear a kilt upon occasion...hmmm...I think there is something seriously wrong there. :roll:
Aodhan
I forgot to tell: Stuart had entirely convinced me: now I think that the structure of flute and the embouchure makes bigger difference in the sound than the sort of wood. 
Let me tell you a story. I thought that one can distinguish the sound of a boxwood flute than other hard woods like blackwood or rosewood - so the sound of a boxwood flute is significantly smoother and sweeter than any other hard wood flute. Everybody told me that.
Than in 2002 Jean-Michel Veillon spent here - in Hungary - a week, and he gave several concerts. He played - amongst others - an old Breton tune that sounded very exoticly. He played it on a keyed Boxwood flute - he told that that tune was such an old Breton one that he had to made a wooden flute - in a very unusual scale - especially for this tune. This boxwood flute had a VERY strong and agressive sound.
Bennett
Let me tell you a story. I thought that one can distinguish the sound of a boxwood flute than other hard woods like blackwood or rosewood - so the sound of a boxwood flute is significantly smoother and sweeter than any other hard wood flute. Everybody told me that.
Than in 2002 Jean-Michel Veillon spent here - in Hungary - a week, and he gave several concerts. He played - amongst others - an old Breton tune that sounded very exoticly. He played it on a keyed Boxwood flute - he told that that tune was such an old Breton one that he had to made a wooden flute - in a very unusual scale - especially for this tune. This boxwood flute had a VERY strong and agressive sound.
Bennett
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David Levine
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Differences
The differences from one flute to another will be most apparent to the player. But the difference isn't only about the sound. Responsiveness, ease of handling, and balance also matter.
Response: how quickly the flute sounds after you blow into it.
Handling: smaller holes are easier to cover. I also don't much care for a fat flute.
Balance: some flutes weigh so much more on one end than the other that one end tends to dip down, making the flute hard to hold.
Anybody who has tapped a turned billet of cocus has to be impressed with the peculiar ringing bell-like quality it has. Wouldn't one expect this sonorous quality to carry over to the finished flute?
A blackwood billet has a slightly duller sound when tapped.
Response: how quickly the flute sounds after you blow into it.
Handling: smaller holes are easier to cover. I also don't much care for a fat flute.
Balance: some flutes weigh so much more on one end than the other that one end tends to dip down, making the flute hard to hold.
Anybody who has tapped a turned billet of cocus has to be impressed with the peculiar ringing bell-like quality it has. Wouldn't one expect this sonorous quality to carry over to the finished flute?
A blackwood billet has a slightly duller sound when tapped.
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RudallRose
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i don't know, stuart, whether cocus was "stained" or, more strictly, darkened in the old days. Not sure there was a need, frankly.
Boxwood was often stained, almost painted it was so dark, to give the impression of the dark woods rather than what was then less expensive boxwood. I'm not sure when that started to be a fashion, whether it was a maker's doing or just a trend among flute owners who wanted their instruments to appear more in the mainstream.
I know makers today will stain cocus with acid to get a darker color to match the body of an old flute, as in a replacement head piece or barrel or what have you. Some, such as Pat Olwell and John Gallagher, are extremely skilled in matching it so well that you can't tell the difference.
That's good, as long as you don't try to pass off the replacement as an original, which would be difficult considering the stamps and such, although I bet a really intent forger would have at it. I'm surprised the Pakistani factories haven't tried this yet!
dm
Boxwood was often stained, almost painted it was so dark, to give the impression of the dark woods rather than what was then less expensive boxwood. I'm not sure when that started to be a fashion, whether it was a maker's doing or just a trend among flute owners who wanted their instruments to appear more in the mainstream.
I know makers today will stain cocus with acid to get a darker color to match the body of an old flute, as in a replacement head piece or barrel or what have you. Some, such as Pat Olwell and John Gallagher, are extremely skilled in matching it so well that you can't tell the difference.
That's good, as long as you don't try to pass off the replacement as an original, which would be difficult considering the stamps and such, although I bet a really intent forger would have at it. I'm surprised the Pakistani factories haven't tried this yet!
dm
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Cathy Wilde
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Ditto Mr. Levine, especially on the "how it sounds to the player" part.
What's more, David's descriptions of tapped billets also, pardon the pun, ring true to this player (from my experience, of course!). My cocus flute has a more clear, cool, crisp and yes, even a wee bit bell-like sound under the ear; my blackwood flutes have a more dense, woody sound. You could probably call it "dull" -- although "dense" or is more what it feels like to me.
Of course, they are from three different makers*, so that's probably part of it, and all three respond differently -- but of the two wood types, I would unequivocally call the cocus clearer and a touch lighter.
(If I was describing coffee, I would call cocus "medium roast" and blackwood "dark roast.")
Anyway, FWIW. And remember, that's only what they sound like UNDER MY EAR. Also, if anyone wants to post any more cocus pictures, I've got a few -- and they're actually in sunlight! -- but I don't know how much detail you can see. Anyway, just tell me where to send 'em ....
(*Yeah, yeah. Can anyone say "too many flutes, not enough life"?
)
What's more, David's descriptions of tapped billets also, pardon the pun, ring true to this player (from my experience, of course!). My cocus flute has a more clear, cool, crisp and yes, even a wee bit bell-like sound under the ear; my blackwood flutes have a more dense, woody sound. You could probably call it "dull" -- although "dense" or is more what it feels like to me.
Of course, they are from three different makers*, so that's probably part of it, and all three respond differently -- but of the two wood types, I would unequivocally call the cocus clearer and a touch lighter.
(If I was describing coffee, I would call cocus "medium roast" and blackwood "dark roast.")
Anyway, FWIW. And remember, that's only what they sound like UNDER MY EAR. Also, if anyone wants to post any more cocus pictures, I've got a few -- and they're actually in sunlight! -- but I don't know how much detail you can see. Anyway, just tell me where to send 'em ....
(*Yeah, yeah. Can anyone say "too many flutes, not enough life"?
)Deja Fu: The sense that somewhere, somehow, you've been kicked in the head exactly like this before.
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Cathy Wilde
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Cathy Wilde
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One other thing -- my understanding is that cocus darkens not only with age, but use. The body of my flute is dark brown where the hands go, but the head is lighter and the foot is the lightest of all because it's hardly been touched. (In fact, I have to say the foot joint of this flute is really, really beautiful -- sometimes I wish I could lighten the rest of the flute back to it!)
Okay, I'll stop now.
Okay, I'll stop now.
Deja Fu: The sense that somewhere, somehow, you've been kicked in the head exactly like this before.