we gave Iraq back to them!!!

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:03 pm

Blackhawk,

You are describing almost accurately what's happening over there, the only thing you don't talk about is the fact that the palestinians do live under occupation. Does it cross your mind at all? Is it because you just don't want to acknowledge this? It happened 20 years ago, and you think this is old history and we should forget about it? Okay then, easy, why not invade a bunch of other countries and in twenty years people will have forgotten about it. Maybe if Germany would have invaded america 50 years ago you'd forgot about it already. Well, you'd be speaking german, but who cares right? It happened 50 years ago, that's a LONG time ago, even a dog wouldnt survive that long anyway.

Believe me, if some country invades my country, and I live under occupation, and the ONLY way to fight is to put a bomb on myself because I'm poor and I don't see any future and my land is occupied, I will go and blow myself up.

I'm sorry, comments like yours for me are just created from ignorance, and comments like those are the reason why americans invaded Irak and might invade other countries in the future, because there might be very good reasons to invade, and you will speak them loud, but the REAL reason not to invade won't be spoken at all.

The terrotists killed 3000 people in New York, but america has killed hundreds of thousands, by supporting terrorist governments and by imposing economic sanctions. But THAT'S not in newspapers.

I guess I'm pumped up because I saw Fareinheit yesterday, but this is the way I've always seen the conflicts going on.

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:19 pm

The thing with Israel is that, if you ignore the Biblical overtones, you have a group of people establishing a racially-based state through extreme violence and horrific terroristic tactics that have remained largely undocumented, and then using increasing levels of violence to maintain this racially-based state. What happened in South Africa was much less bloody in comparison, but since South Africa lacked the Biblical overtones, they became an international pariah state until the situation was mostly fixed there. Israel, on the other hand receives a lot of millitary aid and is held up to the world as an example, "the only democracy in the Middle East", etc. This has been rehashed extensively in the "political" thread.

A large part of the reason for this to happen was because of Holocaust guilt -- the world looked the other way. The two things shouldn't be connected: the horrible injustices that have been perpretated against people of Jewish descent for over a thousand years shouldn't provide them with carte blanche to turn around and perpetrate injustice on the Palestinians.

Enough from me on this. I doubt we can discuss this subject with civility.

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:42 pm

Azalin wrote:Blackhawk,

You are describing almost accurately what's happening over there, the only thing you don't talk about is the fact that the palestinians do live under occupation.

Well, there you have it. You have no trouble with the Palestinians killing women and children. I believe it to be immoral. You believe it's justified because it's an occupied country. That's the key to my outrage. Yet you accuse my country of bloodthirstiness. That's almost funny.

I was in Ireland 2 years ago when Yassir Arafat was under house arrest and there were tanks parked outside his house. There were large demonstrations throughout Europe chanting "Free Yassir Arafat!" and carrying picket signs. Meanwhile every two or three days there was a suicide bombing, killing the usual 20 or so Israelis and wounding scores more. The Euronews was fascinating. They'd give 15 straight minutes to poor Arafat bravely defying Israeli tanks (all the while being well fed and unhurt), then give one minute to the scores of dead and wounded Israelis as if they were just an obligatory afterthought...which is all they were. Talk about your slanted news. :roll: But what do I know? I'm just a poor ignorant American while you're a wise non American.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:47 pm

blackhawk wrote:Well, there you have it. You have no trouble with dead Jewish women and children. ...

I think you are playing this very dirty, blackhawk.

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:57 pm

Bloomfield wrote:
blackhawk wrote:Well, there you have it. You have no trouble with dead Jewish women and children. ...
I think you are playing this very dirty, blackhawk.

I actually went back and reworded it before reading your post, bloomfield, but the intent of my words is the same. And obviously accurate or he would have hotly denied it in the first place instead of trying to rationalize their murders.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:59 pm

Blackhawk,

I could spend a few minutes coming out with the number of innocent palestinians killed by the israelis versus the number of innocent israelis killed by palestinians since the beginning of the conflic and I'm sure I would come up with impressive numbers. But this is pointless, too much arguing for me at this point. I hold nothing against you personnally, and I think arguments are good when done with a civilized way, like we did. I'm just a little angry at the idea you seem to promote, and I'm a little disappointed that you came up with the word "Adolph" and "gaz chamber" when I was talking about Israel as a country, not as jews.

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:59 pm

Azalin wrote:Blackhawk,

You are describing almost accurately what's happening over there, the only thing you don't talk about is the fact that the palestinians do live under occupation.

It was the Jewish homeland before European invaders dispersed them. But that's ancient history. Yet, it's happened again and again. Africa... U.S.A.... Canada... Australia... New Zealand... Latin America... etc.

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:10 pm

Azalin wrote:Blackhawk,

I could spend a few minutes coming out with the number of innocent palestinians killed by the israelis versus the number of innocent israelis killed by palestinians since the beginning of the conflic and I'm sure I would come up with impressive numbers. But this is pointless, too much arguing for me at this point. I hold nothing against you personnally, and I think arguments are good when done with a civilized way, like we did. I'm just a little angry at the idea you seem to promote, and I'm a little disappointed that you came up with the word "Adolph" and "gaz chamber" when I was talking about Israel as a country, not as jews.

I'm sorry I get so hot on this subject, Az. I agree it's pointless for us to keep arguing. I apologize for the Hitler reference. I'm a history buff, and have done a lot of reading on WW2 and how Hitler began his crusade. He didn't start off saying "Let's kill all the Jews." He started slowly and took time with small ideas first, and I see the similarity between "Israel is causing the problems, let's disarm them," and some of the stuff he said back then. You have a right to be angry at me for that. I apologize for that one thing.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:34 pm

Blackhawk, I understand your frustrations concerning WW2 and the nazis. I feel the same, I read a lot about it and it's so shocking that it's hard to even read about it. What I feel about what they did to jews is beyond anger, and hopefully lessons from the past will never be forgotten.

FJohnSharp · Post by **FJohnSharp** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:11 pm

I just want to know, when we gave it back to them, did we wrap it first? And, I never signed the card.

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:49 pm

As far as Israelis vs Palestinians go, if you ask me, neither side is right when they're both clearly wrong.

I have slightly more sympathy for Israel, being the only non-Muslim state in the Middle East, and therefor under a lot more external negative pressure. I'd be scared to the point of doing some rather drastic things myself in the same sort of situation, if only to insure my own survival, because if there's one thing that is clear, it's that the Palistinians don't want peace with Israel. They want Israel.

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:42 pm

I know I should stay out of this...

I have to come down on Blackhawk's "side" on this. I have the same feeling about the Palestinian suicide killers that I had about te bombers of the IRA a few years back.

A soldier or a warrior picks up his weapons and goes out to meet his enemy as a man.

A terrorist sets off bombs in secret in an attempt to damage those who are least capable of hurting him in return. The suicide terrorist is just the more fanatical of the murderous subspecies.

And for the elders of Palestine: A COWARD sends his children out to blow themselves up because he isn't man enough to do his own fighting.

Azalin · Post by **Azalin** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:47 pm

Well, give the palestinians tanks and airplanes and they will go head to head with Israel's army.

Hey, wait a minute, I'm out of this! Chuck, you ^#% !

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:03 pm

Azalin wrote:Hey, wait a minute, I'm out of this! Chuck, you ^#% !

Hey, what can I say? I'm a fanatical fisherman currently sidelined with a torn rotary cuff and what now turns out to be a mild case of pneumonia. I'm just trying to keep my trolling skills in practice

Monster · Post by **Monster** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:15 pm

Chuck_Clark wrote:I know I should stay out of this...

A soldier or a warrior picks up his weapons and goes out to meet his enemy as a man.

Who does this anymore? I mean the British tried it but the Mericans hiding behind trees blew their shiny brass buttons off. More recently the U.S. track record involves a lot of aerial bombardament, then swooping in with tanks and bradley vehicles to "secure" the area.

They still go man to man at the WWF or dang what's it calle now, WWE, whatever it's called I'm talking about those wrastler fellas.