Ads? A question and suggestion for Dale.

energy · Post by **energy** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:43 pm

I logged in today for the first time in several days, and was quite surprised to find that there is now a Google ad bar at the top of of Chiffpage. While they are fortunately just text and don't seem to slow anything down much, the idea of any kind of ads decorating our beloved Chiffboard seems deplorable. So. I guess I don't really have a question, instead I'll just assume that Dale is losing money keeping the site up and that's why he feels compelled to use ads. So now for my suggestion.

There is a private site I occasionally frequent, http://www.worldofryzom.com, which covers its costs through user donations. A box in the upper right corner on the main page shows expenses versus donations, and therefore need. The system seems to work very effectively for them, and I think it would probably work here.

If anyone has other ideas for how Dale can minimize losses on the Chiffboard, feel free to post them here.

Post by **Dale** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:22 pm

Thanks. I reached the decision to do the google ads reluctantly. I have always lost some money on chiff & fipple and when I lost a little, I didn't care and it is absolutely worth it to me. After all, I got a lot of free whistles (for obvious reasons, that has slowed down, as it had to) and made a lot of friends. And, frankly, if I couldn't find anyway to offset the costs, even now, I'd probably just eat the cost anyway.

But the costs have gone up and I have 3 daughters in private school or college, etc. etc. whine, whine and I just didn't feel like I could continue to pay it all, whine, whine.

Also, over the years, countless people have written and suggested I call for voluntary contributions or even charge a mandatory subscription fee. The latter was unthinkable to me, the former, finally, seemed reasonable, as long as I made it clear it was entirely voluntary.

This is awkward, and I SINCERELY don't want anyone to read this as a guilt trip.: I put out a call in two issues of the newsletter and, I think, the message board, for financial support. I got donations from 35 lovely people. Most were the $12 I suggested. Mercifully, some were for more. One was $50. One was $100. I believe it added up to about $650. But, the people willing to pay amounted to 1% of members. I was hoping for 5% or so. I was hoping that a call for donations would have the kind of return so that I wouldn't have to ask more than, say, once a year. But the response meant that I was going to have to ask more often.

The google ads are relatively painless, relatively unobtrusive, fairly relevant in content. At present, much to my surprise, their presence on the website seem to be producing about $100 a month in revenue. This is about what C&F costs me. So, additional patronage can go against future developments. As Rich has explained, we may have to ultimately pay for hosting. But, in any case, I don't think I'll be asking for more patrons---fortunately, it no longer seems necessary. In addition to what looks like will be a steady flow of about $100/month from google, I get about $250 a year, maybe, from amazon.com and a little money from cafepress.com. (Very little).

So, that's the deal. I'm sorry you find this deplorable. I was hoping you'd find it no worse than regrettable. And, thanks for your suggestion.

Post by **Dale** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:25 pm

As I re-read my post, there still is more of a tone of complaint and whining that I intended. I wish to express that Chiff & Fipple has been worth every penny I've spent on it to me personally and, based on feedback, it's meant a lot to lots of people. I'd do it all again in a heartbeat and, as I said, I'd find someway to pay for it as long as I could. I would never want ANYONE to contribute money that couldn't afford it or didn't want to. It's a free service and always has been and always will be.

This is a fabulous community of people and I wouldn't know how to say how much it has enriched my life and gotten me through some recent difficult times in my life. How much is that worth to me?

MarkB · Post by **MarkB** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:50 pm

No whining here Dale, as far as I am concerned this board of yours comes under the National Security Act as an essential service, maybe you can look for federal funding?

MarkB

energy · Post by **energy** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:20 pm

DaleWisely wrote:...I'm sorry you find this deplorable.

I didn't mean to sound so negative. I'd like to say, though, that I don't recieve the newletter at all, and I don't recall seeing the request for funds on the board. So something a little more visible might help. But if your happy with the way things are, then so be it.

Post by **Dale** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:38 pm

energy wrote:
DaleWisely wrote:...I'm sorry you find this deplorable.
I didn't mean to sound so negative. I'd like to say, though, that I don't recieve the newletter at all, and I don't recall seeing the request for funds on the board. So something a little more visible might help. But if your happy with the way things are, then so be it.

Thanks. The newsletters are always at http://www.chiffandfipple.com/webissues.html

But, look out. There are google ads there!

Dale

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 8:12 pm

Dale

Don't apologize for our benefit. The work you and Rich put into this is enough without expecting you to absorb financial loss as well. If it keeps C&F alive and healthy, I say looking at unobtrusive banner ads is a ridiculously small price to pay.

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 9:19 pm

energy wrote:
DaleWisely wrote:...I'm sorry you find this deplorable.
I didn't mean to sound so negative. I'd like to say, though, that I don't recieve the newletter at all, and I don't recall seeing the request for funds on the board. So something a little more visible might help. But if your happy with the way things are, then so be it.

I believe there was a post regarding the lack of funds on the board. I don't normally look at the newsletter but was aware of the request.

Darwin · Post by **Darwin** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:02 pm

The ads don't bother me at all--especially since they are all whistle-related. They certainly aren't obtrusive.

Actually, my main complaint about "ads" relates to commercial posts.

Contrary to what you migh expect, I feel that there aren't enough of them. At least, I feel that the possible commercial aspects of posts by whistlemakers are over-restricted. I really don't think that long threads on whistle details should count against them.

I suppose they could get out of hand, but I really enjoy reading what the whistlemakers have to say about their products. In a way, those folks are a big part of why I come to C&F each day.

I also think that Bill, Mack, Daniel, Paul, Stacey, John, Sandy, Gary, and the rest are a very friendly and mutually-supportive group, so the rules against invidious comparisons probably doesn't seem all that oppressive to them. I've seldom seen a less competetive group of competitors.

So, I wonder if the rules could be written a bit more liberally while still preventing vast spam-like postings?

lollycross · Post by **lollycross** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:22 pm

Gee, I have never run into this "ad bar". I guess cause I haven't
logged out in months! I didn't even know there was a problem!
Sorry Dale,
Lolly

Post by **Dale** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:25 pm

Darwin wrote:
So, I wonder if the rules could be written a bit more liberally while still preventing vast spam-like postings?

Well, you have to remember that there's an anti-commercial posting lobby on the board and a pro-commercial lobby on the board. The current rules are a compromise. I'm open to proposals.

Dale

Darwin · Post by **Darwin** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:30 pm

DaleWisely wrote:Well, you have to remember that there's an anti-commercial posting lobby on the board and a pro-commercial lobby on the board. The current rules are a compromise. I'm open to proposals.

The initial conflict must go back to well before my time. Are there any particular threads where we could go back and read about the issues?

dubhlinn · Post by **dubhlinn** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:00 am

Just an idea.
If Dale were to dispense with the E- mail notification of a new posting to a thread that someone has been following would that save money?
If you are following the development of a thread then you don't really need a prompt do you?

Also, Is it fair for us to take so much pleasure from the Board and then leave Dale to pay the piper?

I,for one, have no complaint at all, at all about making a contribution to the costs incurred in running the Board and am sure that the more computer literate amongst us could set up a place on the Board where money could be directly transferred from our accounts to a "Housekeeping Jar".

Remember folks, that there is no such thing as a free lunch though I am not for one moment suggesting mandatory payment just a optional donation dependant on how much spare cash one might have at any given time.

Given the choice between no Board and no beer over any given weekend I would always go for the Board-no contest.

Slan,
D.

Azathoth · Post by **Azathoth** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:08 am

Darwin wrote:The ads don't bother me at all--especially since they are all whistle-related. They certainly aren't obtrusive.

Actually, my main complaint about "ads" relates to commercial posts.

Contrary to what you migh expect, I feel that there aren't enough of them. At least, I feel that the possible commercial aspects of posts by whistlemakers are over-restricted. I really don't think that long threads on whistle details should count against them.

I suppose they could get out of hand, but I really enjoy reading what the whistlemakers have to say about their products. In a way, those folks are a big part of why I come to C&F each day.

I also think that Bill, Mack, Daniel, Paul, Stacey, John, Sandy, Gary, and the rest are a very friendly and mutually-supportive group, so the rules against invidious comparisons probably doesn't seem all that oppressive to them. I've seldom seen a less competetive group of competitors.

So, I wonder if the rules could be written a bit more liberally while still preventing vast spam-like postings?

I have nothing to add to this except a "Hear, hear!".

Additionally (OK, I do seem to have something to add *G) the ad bars bothered me initially only insofar as they are stylistically nothing like the C&F design. Which gets them noticed I guess. I have been clicking on them like mad anyway, thinking -- "Finally, the commercial side of the whistle/flute thing and the discussion side of the whistle/flute thing is IN ONE PLACE". Or at least, one more place

Just my €0,02.

Az

Post by **Dale** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:33 am

dubhlinn wrote:Just an idea.
If Dale were to dispense with the E- mail notification of a new posting to a thread that someone has been following would that save money?

Thanks for your kind post. No, that would not save money.

dubhlinn wrote: Also, Is it fair for us to take so much pleasure from the Board and then leave Dale to pay the piper?

Thanks again. But, I'm ok for now. The Google Ads are covering the costs. There have been relatively few complaints.