Hey, you're "hornpiping" that tune! (What's that?

[E = Fb]

I was playing a reel. Someone told me I was hornpiping it. I assumed it meant adding excessive "lilt" or some such thing. Or does it? Is there such a musical faux pas? How does one play a reel without hornpiping it? Is it a matter of keeping my breath level even?

[Bloomfield]

I was playing a reel. Someone told me I was hornpiping it. I assumed it meant adding excessive "lilt" or some such thing. Or does it? Is there such a musical faux pas? How does one play a reel without hornpiping it? Is it a matter of keeping my breath level even?

I assume you were giving it too much lilt, that Taa-di-taa-di-taa feeling instead of the more usual Taaa-ta-ta-ta taa-ta-ta-ta Taaa.... reel feeling. (this is not a reflection on tonguing or articulation, just rhythm).

While stylistic preferences vary, I get the sense that playing reels pretty straight is generally the better way. Anyway if you crank up the speed sufficiently there comes a point when the lilting hornpipy feeling becomes unfeasible.

I don't think it's about the breath, unless you're "huffing" or accenting the beats with your breath.

HTH

[Darwin]

I agree that it's lilt vs. speed. Bluegrass players tend to play hornpipes as reels. Once you reach breakdown speed, the lilt just disappears. I've seen a couple of more-traditional fiddle players stunned by my mandolin-playing friend's rendition of "Fisher's Hornpipe". I can barely keep up with her on the guitar. It's funny, because I'd always felt that the guitar is severely speed-challenged in comparison to the fiddle (except in the hands of someone like Bryan Sutton).

I've been practicing playing my hornpipes more slowly on the guitar--it's the only way I can play them on the whistle, and got a chance to play a couple with an excellent fiddler (Margaret) at the WCC&FG weekend-'fore-last. It's a whole different feeling. Sorry I didn't get a chance to try my new picking approach (courtesy of Brother Steve) on some jigs. I heard Swallowtail Jig at one point, but was firmly embedded in a Chinese mini-session.

For the old-timey/Bluegrass players here, did you know that Billy in the Lowground sounds pretty cool as a hornpipe?

[brewerpaul]

Whether or not you like playing reels "hornpiped", this can be a useful way to learn the tunes. Somehow, playing the notes with unequal length seems to make it a bit easier. It's like while you're holding the first (longer)note of a pair, you have a tiny bit longer to think about the upcoming note. The Recorder Book, by Ken Wollitz recommends this technique for learning really fast paces. Once you can play them "hornpiped", it's relatively easy to smooth out the rhythm.
I gather that in the musical styles of some parts of Ireland, playing this way is more or less common.

[emmline]

Gads. The curse of growing up with nothing but Johnny Cash and Broadway musicals on the stereo. Just when I thought I'd gotten this hornpipe Daaa-di Daaa-di thing down, I too, started doing it to reels, cause I couldn't remember which was which!
I should stick to moody Scottish stuff.

[Joseph E. Smith]

Just to confuse things a little further, not all reels are played with eighth notes of equal value (ta ta ta ta...), and not all hornpipes are played with dotted eighth notes followed by sixteenth notes (taa ti taa ti...). Tempo is usually the what differentiates the two....uh, but not always

[BoneQuint]

Whether or not you like playing reels "hornpiped", this can be a useful way to learn the tunes. [...] The Recorder Book, by Ken Wollitz recommends this technique for learning really fast paces.

Interesting! I've been fiddling about with "Whinshield's Hornpipe" on the whistle, which is a cool Northumbrian tune. I've heard a few recordings, and it seems to be generally played fairly quickly and straight (more like a march.) I've tried it in many different tempos, and also "hornpiped" it, which gives it a very different feel, and some of the awkward fast runs with C-naturals were much easier.

Here's one recording:
http://www.asaplive.com/archive/detail.asp?id=B1701004

[E = Fb]

Thanks guys. Now I get it.

[Redwolf]

Whether or not you like playing reels "hornpiped", this can be a useful way to learn the tunes. Somehow, playing the notes with unequal length seems to make it a bit easier. It's like while you're holding the first (longer)note of a pair, you have a tiny bit longer to think about the upcoming note. The Recorder Book, by Ken Wollitz recommends this technique for learning really fast paces. Once you can play them "hornpiped", it's relatively easy to smooth out the rhythm.
I gather that in the musical styles of some parts of Ireland, playing this way is more or less common.

I'm actually finding that I need to do this to learn reels properly. If I conciously slow down and put that extra emphasis in, I can eventually get to a more "reel-like" lilt. If I don't do this, I find myself trying to give all the eighth notes equal value, which ultimately gives the wrong feel to the tune.

Redwolf

[AaronMalcomb]

I should stick to moody Scottish stuff.

The line between reels and and hornpipes isn't quite as blurry in Scottish music until you start getting into modern bagpipe tunes. But luckily most Scottish reels only have 8 bars per part and hornpipes 16 whereas you often have 16 bars per part in Irish reels. So even if both reels and hornpipes are played round, they are idomatically distinguishable you can always count if you get stuck.

Cheers,
Aaron

[emmline]

I should stick to moody Scottish stuff.

The line between reels and and hornpipes isn't quite as blurry in Scottish music until you start getting into modern bagpipe tunes. But luckily most Scottish reels only have 8 bars per part and hornpipes 16 whereas you often have 16 bars per part in Irish reels. So even if both reels and hornpipes are played round, they are idomatically distinguishable you can always count if you get stuck.

Cheers,
Aaron

I should stick to trite pop stuff.

[cowtime]

Darwin wrote:

For the old-timey/Bluegrass players here, did you know that Billy in the Lowground sounds pretty cool as a hornpipe?

I wish I was more computer savvy, and had more time-

I'd love for you to hear a recording I've got that was made in the late 60's of our neighborhood fiddler, who learned all his tunes the traditional way, handed down by ear.

His version of Billy in the Lowground is one of my all time favorite tunes.
It is played as a hornpipe, not at all fast, and has an almost exagerated "lilt".

[fancypiper]

Here is some advice I got from Jerry O'Sullivan's "traffic jam" class at the Swananoa Gathering:

When learning a jig, start at waltz speed until you slowly work it up to jig speed.

When learning a reel, start at a slow hornpipe speed, you may be playing "pointed" or "hornpipey" at this stage. As you speed up, this will dissapear when you finally reach reel speed.

When learning a hornpipe, don't play too fast or it will sound like a reel and you won't have time for all those neat triplets that hornpipes love to have.

My comments:
I wish I could get my band to play hornpipes as hornpipes and not at reel speed.

Hornpipes are sadly underplayed and when done right and you have some good step dancers that can get some "air time", they really love to dance to slow hornpipes. The poor dancers want fast tunes.

Old time players never play hornpipes as hornpipes, they always sound like reels to me.

[Redwolf]

I really enjoy playing hornpipes...there's a bounce to them that just kind of makes them fun, and I don't feel the pressure to "speed up" I do with reels. Lots of time to throw in little double cuts and triplets to point up the rhythm.

Redwolf

[Martin Milner]

Hornpipes are sadly underplayed and when done right and you have some good step dancers that can get some "air time", they really love to dance to slow hornpipes. The poor dancers want fast tunes.

Yup. I was asking a friend who plays every wekend about tempo for dances, and he recommended 70bpm for Hornpipes and about 100 for reels.

More tellingly, he said to watch the best dancers in the room. They need a slower tempo because they're putting in all the fancy steps, while the beginners are just walking the steps (in set dances) and don't need the time.

In English Morris dances where there are leaps in the air, the younger dancers need a slower tempo that older dancers, as they leap higher and take longer to come down again!