I don't see any tune, I can only see sheet music.Rosemary Lane wrote:But what do I know. I'm just a tune...
Looking for critiques on my flute playing
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Azalin
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Re: Back off...
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Rosemary Lane
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See a tune?
You can't see a tune, you silly. 
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Cathy Wilde
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This is really cool. Thanks for the opps to talk about something we're all so fascinated by -- and again, thanks, Murphy, for being so willing to put it out there.
Which brings me to what I've been thinking about ever since first reading and posting on this thread yesterday: the value of mistakes.
Yep. Errors. Screwups. Fluffs. Flubs. Misjudgments. And those perennial Downright Flagrant Violations of Good Taste.
Because you know what mistakes are? Merely the results of taking risks, of pushing yourself to try something different. You could see 'em as negative, but I personally view mistakes as learning opportunities in disguise. And the more mistakes I make, the more chances I have to learn -- and the more I can expand the boundaries of my playing by not only discovering what works, but what doesn't (at least in a particular situation).
The best thing I ever heard on this subject came from John Skelton. (And whether you like his playing or not, I'll still wager he's better than most of us. If nothing else, he's been doing it longer, and is managing to make a decent living at it, which is a distinction in and of itself).
He said "You have to know the tune, inside and out."
As I've tried to follow this advice, I've started to understand what he means. And now to me, part of truly, truly learning a tune is screwing up -- sometimes royally.
Play it too fast. Play it too slow. Play it major, play it minor, play it over-ornamented, under-ornamented, play the B part first, play the rolls backwards, play it standing on your head, play it as a freaking HORNPIPE, whatever. The most important thing is that you play the heck out of that thing; experimenting wildly (and not so wildly) until it's in your bones.
And when you get bored with it? Put it away for a month, and then come back and see what it says to you after the break.
The other best thing I've heard on all this stuff also comes from John, which is "I think people should hear you play and first say 'What a great tune!', not 'What a great player!'."
Now granted, this is a personal opinion. But think for a minute. What REALLY attracts you to Matt Molloy? Or Jack Coen or Harry Bradley or Patsy Hanley or Josie McDermott or Brian Finnegan or whoever? Is it the perfect roll? Is it the phrasing? Is it the huff, is it the smoothness, is it the jazziness or straightness or .... Maybe it's some of this (i.e., you might think "wow, listen to those fireworks"), but I believe that in reality, when it's a good player, it's the TUNE that catches your ear first. All the other stuff combines to support it, yes -- but I think people tend to listen to, and want to learn, certain things because they just plain like them.
I mean, if we really got off on technique like that, who'd need so many CDs of all those useless tunes?
So often it's so easy to get tangled in theory and technique and wind up with a technical exercise pretending to be a tune -- a series of rolls, cranns, breaths, cuts, strikes, taps, what have you WITH NO SOUL.
I've noticed this academic approach at a lot of the sesssions and clinics and jams I've been privileged to attend. People just playing along, not listening to each other, intent on replicating their little perfected versions, staying inside the box all the way. And yeah, it ends up being a tune, but so .... well, mechanical. All about the rolls and such.
Don't get me wrong; it's eventually necessary to have those tools in your box. But sometimes the best things I've heard aren't ornamented at all, and sometimes the loveliest playing I've heard is from someone who hasn't necessarily got the technique down, but certainly has the feel.
Anyway, I think a lot of this comes from that same daggone place: Being Afraid of Messing It Up. Youbetcha I do this too, in spades, and you know what? It shows up in our playing. We get so daggone worried about getting that roll just like So and So's or that phrasing like that recording of Such and Such's, that we never own the tune ourselves. All we wind up with is an imitation of someone else, and a rather flat one at that.
Finally, Murph, I beg to differ with one thing you said about listening more than you play. I have a feeling that you didn't mean it to be read as such, but .... Yes, I think we should listen as much as we can. But never, ever, EVER at the expense of a chance to play (unless, of course, you're at a session and doing so would be counterproductive or disrespectful of the other musicians).
Besides .... to me, even listening to what you think is absolutely perfect is still no substitute for playing it yourself, with all your attendant imperfections -- i.e., making your own mistakes, and getting better by learning from them. Otherwise, you're just sitting on the sidelines.
So to me, it's pretty simple. Play every chance you can, don't be afraid to screw up a lot, listen to people, ask questions, read books, take what you like or understand and leave what you don't, come back to it later and see if you like or understand it better, and eventually you'll get better, too.
Then again .... I could be all wrong.
Which brings me to what I've been thinking about ever since first reading and posting on this thread yesterday: the value of mistakes.
Yep. Errors. Screwups. Fluffs. Flubs. Misjudgments. And those perennial Downright Flagrant Violations of Good Taste.
Because you know what mistakes are? Merely the results of taking risks, of pushing yourself to try something different. You could see 'em as negative, but I personally view mistakes as learning opportunities in disguise. And the more mistakes I make, the more chances I have to learn -- and the more I can expand the boundaries of my playing by not only discovering what works, but what doesn't (at least in a particular situation).
The best thing I ever heard on this subject came from John Skelton. (And whether you like his playing or not, I'll still wager he's better than most of us. If nothing else, he's been doing it longer, and is managing to make a decent living at it, which is a distinction in and of itself).
He said "You have to know the tune, inside and out."
As I've tried to follow this advice, I've started to understand what he means. And now to me, part of truly, truly learning a tune is screwing up -- sometimes royally.
Play it too fast. Play it too slow. Play it major, play it minor, play it over-ornamented, under-ornamented, play the B part first, play the rolls backwards, play it standing on your head, play it as a freaking HORNPIPE, whatever. The most important thing is that you play the heck out of that thing; experimenting wildly (and not so wildly) until it's in your bones.
And when you get bored with it? Put it away for a month, and then come back and see what it says to you after the break.
The other best thing I've heard on all this stuff also comes from John, which is "I think people should hear you play and first say 'What a great tune!', not 'What a great player!'."
Now granted, this is a personal opinion. But think for a minute. What REALLY attracts you to Matt Molloy? Or Jack Coen or Harry Bradley or Patsy Hanley or Josie McDermott or Brian Finnegan or whoever? Is it the perfect roll? Is it the phrasing? Is it the huff, is it the smoothness, is it the jazziness or straightness or .... Maybe it's some of this (i.e., you might think "wow, listen to those fireworks"), but I believe that in reality, when it's a good player, it's the TUNE that catches your ear first. All the other stuff combines to support it, yes -- but I think people tend to listen to, and want to learn, certain things because they just plain like them.
I mean, if we really got off on technique like that, who'd need so many CDs of all those useless tunes?
So often it's so easy to get tangled in theory and technique and wind up with a technical exercise pretending to be a tune -- a series of rolls, cranns, breaths, cuts, strikes, taps, what have you WITH NO SOUL.
I've noticed this academic approach at a lot of the sesssions and clinics and jams I've been privileged to attend. People just playing along, not listening to each other, intent on replicating their little perfected versions, staying inside the box all the way. And yeah, it ends up being a tune, but so .... well, mechanical. All about the rolls and such.
Don't get me wrong; it's eventually necessary to have those tools in your box. But sometimes the best things I've heard aren't ornamented at all, and sometimes the loveliest playing I've heard is from someone who hasn't necessarily got the technique down, but certainly has the feel.
Anyway, I think a lot of this comes from that same daggone place: Being Afraid of Messing It Up. Youbetcha I do this too, in spades, and you know what? It shows up in our playing. We get so daggone worried about getting that roll just like So and So's or that phrasing like that recording of Such and Such's, that we never own the tune ourselves. All we wind up with is an imitation of someone else, and a rather flat one at that.
Finally, Murph, I beg to differ with one thing you said about listening more than you play. I have a feeling that you didn't mean it to be read as such, but .... Yes, I think we should listen as much as we can. But never, ever, EVER at the expense of a chance to play (unless, of course, you're at a session and doing so would be counterproductive or disrespectful of the other musicians).
Besides .... to me, even listening to what you think is absolutely perfect is still no substitute for playing it yourself, with all your attendant imperfections -- i.e., making your own mistakes, and getting better by learning from them. Otherwise, you're just sitting on the sidelines.
So to me, it's pretty simple. Play every chance you can, don't be afraid to screw up a lot, listen to people, ask questions, read books, take what you like or understand and leave what you don't, come back to it later and see if you like or understand it better, and eventually you'll get better, too.
Then again .... I could be all wrong.
Deja Fu: The sense that somewhere, somehow, you've been kicked in the head exactly like this before.
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ChrisLaughlin
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Hi Jack -
This is great stuff. It reminds me a lot of the playing on The Mountain Road album or the "flute geezers" mp3 collection. I mean that as a tremendous complement.
You are very well in tune, the tone is great, your rhythm is rock-solid and the tempo is just right.
My only suggestions for improvement have already been mentioned.
The first is breath pulsing. See if you can get that chug-a-chug-a chug-a-chug-a rhythm in there with your breathing. Harry Bradley does this brilliantly, as do many of the Sligo and Belfast players. It takes some getting used to but it gives a great drive to the music.
The second is hard to articulate.... I'd like to hear you play with a little more confidence... really rip into it and beat some of those notes around. My friends have told me that the biggest and most important development in my playing was when I started to play like I was confidant. I didn't have a big improvement in technique or tone or anything like that- I just decided I was going to go all out, despite my fears of not playing very well.
I think if you got those breath pulses going and played with just a little more confidence you'd really be golden.
Thanks for posting this and great work!
Chris
This is great stuff. It reminds me a lot of the playing on The Mountain Road album or the "flute geezers" mp3 collection. I mean that as a tremendous complement.
You are very well in tune, the tone is great, your rhythm is rock-solid and the tempo is just right.
My only suggestions for improvement have already been mentioned.
The first is breath pulsing. See if you can get that chug-a-chug-a chug-a-chug-a rhythm in there with your breathing. Harry Bradley does this brilliantly, as do many of the Sligo and Belfast players. It takes some getting used to but it gives a great drive to the music.
The second is hard to articulate.... I'd like to hear you play with a little more confidence... really rip into it and beat some of those notes around. My friends have told me that the biggest and most important development in my playing was when I started to play like I was confidant. I didn't have a big improvement in technique or tone or anything like that- I just decided I was going to go all out, despite my fears of not playing very well.
I think if you got those breath pulses going and played with just a little more confidence you'd really be golden.
Thanks for posting this and great work!
Chris
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RudallRose
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Cathy makes a terrific point.
Simply said: Just play the tune! Do whatever it tells you to do.
More important, play it all over, every way you can think.
One tune that I've taken to doing this with is Moving Cloud, my likely favorite reel to play.
I do it on Eb whistle, play it like Sean Ryan with tonguing, with triplets, with rolls, without rolls, on Bb flute slowly, on Bb whistle with a hop to it, on D flute smooth, on D flute choppy. Lots of ornaments, lots of variation, back to nothingness, etc etc etc.
I listen to Matt Molloy's performance of it (live and studio), then to Michael Flatley's. Listen to the notes, the phrases, the ornaments, the variations. Steal one or two moves, turn it around to my own.
Let the tune speak.
Of course, we do this with all tunes all the time.....but sometimes one just grabs you and you disappear into it forever. Love it!
dm
Simply said: Just play the tune! Do whatever it tells you to do.
More important, play it all over, every way you can think.
One tune that I've taken to doing this with is Moving Cloud, my likely favorite reel to play.
I do it on Eb whistle, play it like Sean Ryan with tonguing, with triplets, with rolls, without rolls, on Bb flute slowly, on Bb whistle with a hop to it, on D flute smooth, on D flute choppy. Lots of ornaments, lots of variation, back to nothingness, etc etc etc.
I listen to Matt Molloy's performance of it (live and studio), then to Michael Flatley's. Listen to the notes, the phrases, the ornaments, the variations. Steal one or two moves, turn it around to my own.
Let the tune speak.
Of course, we do this with all tunes all the time.....but sometimes one just grabs you and you disappear into it forever. Love it!
dm
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ChrisLaughlin
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chas
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I agree with much of what Murph says in his "9 Theses". I approach things a little differently. I'm in no way a paragon, and I obviously don't spend as much time on fluting or especially ITM as many.
I tend to go in phases. There are times when I play in all my free time, other times (less often) when I spend more time listening. I think that listening to different instruments is especially valuable, though. The single album I've benefitted from the most is probably Jack and Charlie Coen, but not too far behind is Kevin Burke's mostly solo live album. He's another one who considers each piece individually and plays tunes at the appropriate pace for the tune, not every single reel at a gazillion bpm.
I also admit that I still play the whistle some. In the car every day, but also at home some, too. I had gotten completely away from it for some time, but my (flute) teacher encouraged me to pick it up now and then, when I'm frustrated with the flute, to learn a tune, whatever. I'm still on flute 90% of the time.
I guess to me the music is the music -- Liam O'Flynn is a great interpreter of tunes; it doesn't matter that he plays the pipes and whistle. I am still coming to grips with the music and what makes a tune sound good. The elusive "lift" that StevieJ has talked about, or "direction" as my teacher puts it. Yes, I'll still need to listen to more flute music for flute technique, but there's a lot more to making a tune sound good on the flute than technique that's flute-specific.
One thing my teacher has had me do is just let all the stops out. Blow, overblow, as hard as I can and still get a sound out of the flute. He said he'd done that almost exclusively for a year to get the drive or direction into the music. I'm not the least bit obsessive, but I do spend some time doing that. This was initially with regard to Deirdre Havlin/Deanta's version of King George, which is on WFO1, BTW. The weird thing is, breath management is still a huge problem for me, but blowing within an inch of my life, he said I still didn't take any more breaths than I normally do. More winded after a couple of minutes of playing, but still didn't breathe any more. I haven't a clue. Also, my wife also said my playing the tune like this was much more musical.
It's all individual; we all learn differently, which is good, otherwise we'd all sound the same.
I tend to go in phases. There are times when I play in all my free time, other times (less often) when I spend more time listening. I think that listening to different instruments is especially valuable, though. The single album I've benefitted from the most is probably Jack and Charlie Coen, but not too far behind is Kevin Burke's mostly solo live album. He's another one who considers each piece individually and plays tunes at the appropriate pace for the tune, not every single reel at a gazillion bpm.
I also admit that I still play the whistle some. In the car every day, but also at home some, too. I had gotten completely away from it for some time, but my (flute) teacher encouraged me to pick it up now and then, when I'm frustrated with the flute, to learn a tune, whatever. I'm still on flute 90% of the time.
I guess to me the music is the music -- Liam O'Flynn is a great interpreter of tunes; it doesn't matter that he plays the pipes and whistle. I am still coming to grips with the music and what makes a tune sound good. The elusive "lift" that StevieJ has talked about, or "direction" as my teacher puts it. Yes, I'll still need to listen to more flute music for flute technique, but there's a lot more to making a tune sound good on the flute than technique that's flute-specific.
One thing my teacher has had me do is just let all the stops out. Blow, overblow, as hard as I can and still get a sound out of the flute. He said he'd done that almost exclusively for a year to get the drive or direction into the music. I'm not the least bit obsessive, but I do spend some time doing that. This was initially with regard to Deirdre Havlin/Deanta's version of King George, which is on WFO1, BTW. The weird thing is, breath management is still a huge problem for me, but blowing within an inch of my life, he said I still didn't take any more breaths than I normally do. More winded after a couple of minutes of playing, but still didn't breathe any more. I haven't a clue. Also, my wife also said my playing the tune like this was much more musical.
It's all individual; we all learn differently, which is good, otherwise we'd all sound the same.
Charlie
Whorfin Woods
"Our work puts heavy metal where it belongs -- as a music genre and not a pollutant in drinking water." -- Prof Ali Miserez.
Whorfin Woods
"Our work puts heavy metal where it belongs -- as a music genre and not a pollutant in drinking water." -- Prof Ali Miserez.
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BoneQuint
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I'm not sure people meant it the way you took it...of course you can't "just" let loose, just like you can't "just" play faster or with more ornamentation or with better tone or whatever. It takes practice, like everything else. As I posted earlier, "This is a very different way of practicing compared to learning tunes or polishing techniques with exercises." I feel we were suggesting your fundamentals were sound enough that you could really profit from spending time practicing "putting energy into it" (as you put it) and the like. While practicing, take time to experiment and play, as opposed to drilling on technique, form, and tunes.MurphyStout wrote:this talk of just "letting lose, or put something more into it, and some more energy into it" is illogical. If it were as simple as just wanting add more life to your playing. If it were that easy we'd all be great players.
Agreed! I'll repeat myself again: "Confidently using what techniques you have is FAR more important than having more techniques."MurphyStout wrote:You need to have the confidence to say I'm playing the tune this way and I'm proud of it. I, as I bet many people, need to just be more confident when I play tunes instead of being selfconscious of my breathing spots and where I breathe
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Eldarion
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Well.. I actually disagree. Its not really necessary to listen to flute players for technique. As a flute player, whats more important to gain out of good flute players is how people phrase. Its one thing thats unique to the flute, and I think a top level flute player should be able to turn the "disadvantage" of having to breathe into his/her advantage of creating good phrasing.chas wrote: Yes, I'll still need to listen to more flute music for flute technique...
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AaronMalcomb
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I think this is one of the best performances by a C&Fer I've heard. I've been at it about as long as you, Jack, and with about as much instruction (less actually since you went to Friday Harbor). I think you're making great progress.
I only skimmed the other comments but I agree with some of our more experienced ITM fluters and think some of our less experienced (like myself) should have said a lot less.
The confidence issue is crucial. Some people play with a "just do it" attitude and others choose an "I can do it" strategy. Either way, it will make a huge difference in your playing.
Keep the tunes coming. I enjoyed your 9 points of light and agree with them although I was a sheet music reader before I took up flute but I am improving my ear.
Cheers,
Aaron
I only skimmed the other comments but I agree with some of our more experienced ITM fluters and think some of our less experienced (like myself) should have said a lot less.
The confidence issue is crucial. Some people play with a "just do it" attitude and others choose an "I can do it" strategy. Either way, it will make a huge difference in your playing.
Keep the tunes coming. I enjoyed your 9 points of light and agree with them although I was a sheet music reader before I took up flute but I am improving my ear.
Cheers,
Aaron
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MurphyStout
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djm... you don't have to reinvent the wheel. This is Traditional music... meaning the music is handed down and you really don't need to reinvent anything. It's all there in the music... it's all in the recordings. Theory is nice but blowing into the flute is the only way to figure it out... then relate back to the recordings to compare and see if you've got it right. It's actually pretty simple.
Hehe, for those of you who say playing is more important, I'll remind you of the guys who spend three hours practising every night without much listening, and guys who still are in the same root they where 3 years ago. There are more than a few of them on the forums.
Hehe, for those of you who say playing is more important, I'll remind you of the guys who spend three hours practising every night without much listening, and guys who still are in the same root they where 3 years ago. There are more than a few of them on the forums.
No I'm not returning...
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Aodhan
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Absolutely. One of my favorite pieces by the Chieftains is their "Lots of drops of Brandy", first song on their....Water by the well? CD. Drops of Brandy is a slip jig that they play as a slip jig, jig reel and back to jig.John S wrote:"Knowing the tune inside out", absolutely.
I've taken to playing tunes in different time signatures, and it really teaches you the essential nature of their melodic structure, showing you what you can do to a tune without killing it.
John S
Aodhan