Looking for critiques on my flute playing

[Cathy Wilde]

Thanks for the insight. However, lest anyone assume I'm advocating speeding things up as a universal solution, I'm not. In fact, I'm a firm believer in slowing things down, all the better to discover their nuances. In my experience, it's a lot harder to play a tune more slowly -- or perhaps more precisely, to play it slowly and make it something the average person might want to listen to.

But on the other hand, this tune is a jig, and thus most likely originally written to be performed at a dance tempo. This recording sounds a bit under that to me. And there's nothing wrong with that -- although I think if you're going to play at a more leisurely pace then the tune needs to be re-set and treated as such (c.f. Martin Hayes). So the reason I suggested moving the tempo up a bit -- even just as an exercise -- is because playing it at dance speed can change the focus; can take the onus off the ornaments and pieces and parts and technique and put them back onto the tune as a whole -- and in fact, give it a different character altogether. And in this case, said character might make it feel a little more like the dance tune it was probably written to be.

The same goes for slowing a tune down. But in either case, the job is to do what's right for what the tune is, and then take it where you want it to be. In either case, you need a clear picture of what you want. But just for grins, what would seeing how it felt at a slightly more energetic tempo hurt?

[RudallRose]

Very nice, indeed.

Only one thing stood out to my ear: Quality of tone of the notes, especially those sustained.

It might be what you wanted, and if so, terrific.

But I was hearing notes, such as middle-D (or D'' if you prefer) that began full, then split off into the harmonic or the octava. If it's your intent, great. If not, then it's a sign of a weak embouchure. Or, of loss of breath, which is very common.
To beat that, as you're loosing air in your phrases, the lips should tighten as the airflow slows. That is to compensate what is happening and will keep the tone even as you're about to breath.
Some players tend to "lip up" at the end of phrases and occassionally you'll hear the tone sharpen right before a breath, sort of travelling up a ramp.

In this case, however, ....and again, if it is not intentional....you're going down the ramp. Lip weakens and/or airflow slows. It's a formula of constants.

How to defeat it?
When I was teaching (fife, then flute) I'd work students to sustain a single note for as long as they could. Essentially to empty the lungs completely. Partly to exercise the lungs and diaphram, but also to pay close attention to the embouchure. If you tighten the muscles you'll be able to sustain tone no matter how little (within reason, of course) air you have remaining.

That is the key.

Anyway....terrific playing and you should be very proud. Do keep up the great work!!

Dave M.

[Azalin]

Murph, I've just received the Grey Larson book, so I'm a bit surprised to hear your remark. What should I be aware of before using this book as the basis of my self-teaching? I'll admit I was a bit surprised to find half the examples are done on concertina.

I have lots of flute CDs and the Mad4Trad Flute CD-ROM. Is there some other source you recommend?

I think someone like Jack and I don't want to learn anything from a "book" or anything that has to do with "theory". I assume this is why he commented on the book. Also, I'm sure that spending 5 minutes with a flute master will be worth a lot more than a thousand books for Jack.

[djm]

That's nice if you have a flute teacher readily available, but I suspect that I am like many with no local ITM scene, and trying to teach myself. From this stand point, any recommended reading is appreciated.

djm

[Hoovorff]

We all have different learning styles. What works for one person may not be as beneficial for another. That's not to say, though, that a person can't get SOMETHING from any particular means of learning. I teach elementary school music. Some students learn by hearing. Others have to have the notes. Some love to hear about history and the background, while this puts others to sleep. I've found, though, that ALL kids learn by doing. Nothing beats active music-making.

So, I think we should all learn this Irish trad music in the way(s) that best suit our own learning style(s).

Just a thought.

Jeanie

[Henke]

this is exactly what I was on about.
People who don't like me can just ignore me
if peeplj's comment is more comprehensible and useful to them.

Kind Regards.

I don't know if you mean me here. I do not dislike you and neighter do I find your opinions unuseful in any way. I think I just misread a bit. I can see what you mean now, but this is a field I haven't studied so much yet.
Sorry

[MurphyStout]

Thanks for the emb. tips david... I'll give em a whirl. What you hear isn't necesiraly deliberate but I've no doubt picked up a few "bad" habits listening to the people I listen to.

djm, we seem to disagree a quite a lot of things. I don't like the idea of learning something out of a book... especially something by Grey Larson, who's playing I don't exaclty enjoy. I just seem to notice that people who learn from books and things written down seem to miss the point and become too anal about things and blow things out of proportion. I don't know if you're one of these people. In regards to learning by yourself, we each have to do it our own way I guess. I empathize with the fact that you don't have a teacher or any sessions in your immediate area. I don't either... in fact apart from the 5 days in Friday Harbour this year I've played in one session total. This is what I do and it seems to work for me.

1. No sheet music period.
2. Use your ear.
3. Spend more time listening to "good" itm than you do playing or practising.
4. Listen to itm any chance you get... while you fall asleep, at work, when you walk the dog, when you're in the shower, whenever the you can. I'm trying to catch up with the little brats in ireland and they have 18 more years of listening and saturation in their heads than I do. That's what makes the little buggers good, the music is in there heads cause they were immersed in it. So if you want to catch up you better do a TON of listening.
5. Actively seach for problems and don't shrug off any of them.
6. Listen more!
7. Personally I go back the purer stuff and it's seemed to help me.
8. For flute players. If you want to play the flute, you got to play the flute. Drop the tin whistle. It will do nothing for your phrasing and breathing. ANd you have to learn from flute players. You need to get their ornaments down, you need to get their breathing patterns down, you need to get they way they approach tunes down. Cause copying Martin Hayes, Mary Bergin, Liam O'flynn just won't cut it. You want to be a flute player, you better own up to and start playing like a flute player. If you don't you'll just sound like a hack. IMHO of course. Now once you got your stuff down you can go ahead and start matching the rhythms and grooves of your favorite nonfluteplayers but you need to become a flute player first. This was said to me by Catherine McEvoy in March... although she did say it much nicer and less in your face way. So I don't play teh whistle anymore.
9. No more tin whistle.

Those are the ruff guidelines I try to follow. I constantly change and revise my guidelines. I know it sucks being isolated... cause belive me, I'm isolated, but you should think of it as an oppurtunity to pick up the great old styles you hear in the recordings instead of just kinda becoming a standardized mushpot of things you picked up in sessions.

Hmmm, I don't want to sound defensive or anything cause I really enjoyed what you guys had to say but this talk of just "letting lose, or put something more into it, and some more energy into it" is illogical. If it were as simple as just wanting add more life to your playing. If it were that easy we'd all be great players. You must walk before you can run. I'm going to take your advice to heart and experiment a bit more with my playing but these things just don't pop out of the air. Read what I had to say up there a ways about listening. This music must get into your heart and head before you really can let lose and play the sh*t out of your instrment. Listening is the key... I'm aware that my playing is a bit "plain" but it will take time for that fire and energy to begin to cultivate.



And another thing me and my buddy eld were just discussing. Great old flute players like Mckenna, Duignan, Dolan, Henry, O'louglin ect. don't change all their breathing places. SOme spots in tunes they always breath in the same place and mix up the rest. It helps add a solid feel to the phrasing and allows and good groove to develope. If you listen to Mckenna's Sailors Bonnet he plays it like 5 times thru and breaths basically in the same spots everytime thru, yet everytime I'm captivated and interested. I think good solid geezerlike phrasing depends on these set breathing places and mixing up a efw others to keep it from sounding stale. As Az said, "you need to be confedent." That's another thing that needs to take place in good flute playing.. you need to have the confidence to say I'm playing the tune this way and I'm proud of it. I, as I bet many people, need to just be more confident when I play tunes instead of being selfconscious of my breathing spots and where I breath. It will all sort itself out with much more listening and I practise though i suppose. Don't nkow exaclty my point in writing that last paragraph but me and eld where discussing it and I thought it should be posted on the forums.

My, that was long winded...

[Jayhawk]

MurphyStout - I couldn't agree with your last paragraph more - confidence is so important to playing. Actually, I agree with the vast majority of your 9 points, too.

Concerning not being able to put more spirit into the tune, because I agree technically & rhythmically you seem quite on target to me, well, what's so illogical about feeling moved by the music? You must be being moved by the music...otherwise you'd not put the time and effort into it. Perhaps it's the recording issue that led you to hold back. Or, perhaps even without sheet music you've gone a bit anal on the listening department...let me explain further.

I agree with you totally that you need to immerse yourself in the music. I, too, didn't grow up with it, and I listen to it so much my wife sometimes runs away from the room screaming. But, if you're always analalyzing the playing maybe you're not hearing the emotion that's behind it---just like reading sheet music. Listening note for note isn't that different from reading each note on a page. Personally, I don't care whether or not someone uses sheet music (I try to learn all by ear, but use sheet music at times if I just can't quite get a passage or to look for variation ideas - I'm probably 95% by ear, 5% by sheetmusic) - the key issue is how does the player sound in the end.

I guess all I'm suggesting is try listening for emotion for a while instead of for technique or notes and see if it helps. Then again, perhaps it was just the performance issue of recording and sharing and your playing if I heard it in person would have more of that ITM spirit, so please take my comments with a healthy grain of salt.

Finally, I throroughly respect you for going through this process on line!

Eric

[djm]

seem to miss the point and become too anal about things and blow things out of proportion

It is my very great pleasure to be anal and blow things out my ... oops!

Actually, you have explained yourself very well. You don't care for Larsen's style of writing or playing. This explains your hostility to his book. Fair enough. I don't much care for it either.

I already do the same stuff. I play pipes, and find most flute, whistle and fiddle styles in ITM originate from piping. I don't agree about not playing whistle. One's understanding of a tune should be transferable from instrument to instrument; just the mechanics should change to take advantage of each instrument's special characteristics.

Having been listening to ITM since the 70s, I totally concur with immersing one's self as much as possible in the music, and I do learn 90% by ear. However, ITM records have been rare things to find here. In 25 years, I was able to amass about 30 albums. In the last 5 years, with the ability to order overseas through the internet, I am averaging about 5 albums per month (Help me, somebody! I'm going broke buying CDs on the 'net! ).

My skills reading dots are lamentable, but what I read books for are skills that are not readily apparent to me. As Jayhawk noted, dots can help me get tricky bits of tunes straight in my little head. But what I read more for is technical stuff specific to the instrument, like what is an embouchure, how do you do it, how do you improve it, how to tune the flute if it goes wonky, strategies for better breathing, recommended skills, methods and practises, that sort of thing. Far better to read up on something than to re-invent the wheel each time.

I will, no doubt, try to get to an ITM weekend to get some one-on-one with a more skilled player, but as I am only starting flute I would like to get as many basics down on my own as I can.

Cheers,

djm

[peeplj]

I always think it's best to find the tools that work for you and stick with them, whether for music, learning, or anything else.

Over time, you may add new tools as well. And that's a good thing! To quote the old cliche, "the more you know, the more you know."

--James

[Azalin]

It leaves me wondering, and it's always the same story, how do you define a tool or technique working for you? From my point of view, you can only know if it works for you from feedback of other people. I have a feeling many will define their techniques as working for themselves when they are "happy" about their music.

For example, djm said himself that he doesnt go at sessions and there's nothing miles around. He doesnt seem to be posting clips either. How can he know what works for him? Jack knows, because he's been with many teachers, and met many other musicians, who could comment and give him feedback about his playing.

So, if what works for you is what satifies you, I think it's selfish, unless you're going to end up playing by yourself your whole life.

[skh]

A technique that works for me gives me more control over the sounds I produce, thus giving me more freedom of musical expression, more options. A method of practice, a way of learning that works for me is one that results in improvements of skill as described above, if not immediately (true quick fixes are rare) then at least after giving it a chance for a while.

Who else but myself could judge this?

Apart from that, anything that drives the enjoyment out of my music-making is a no-go. You might read into this that I'm "only" after the fun, but getting better and doing the Music justice is part of the joy for me. But I'm not a puritan, and I strongly believe that the way to music-heaven is not reserved for them.

Anyway -

[Aodhan]

So, if what works for you is what satifies you, I think it's selfish, unless you're going to end up playing by yourself your whole life.

My soccer coach (oh so many years ago) told me that as soon as you are "satisfied" with the way you were playing, it was time to quit the sport.

I have been playing flute for not quite a year, and I go to a weekly session (I play bodhran in a band as well, but I've already heard all the jokes) where we have a really good flute player. (I'm NOT gonna revive the flutist/flautist debate!) There is an evenness to your playing that kind of "smooths" it out from what I hear in a lot if IrTrad. It's missing some of the lilt. As others have said, it's just below the toe tapping level. I think maybe a little bit faster playing (That would be a slow jig to dance to - I do dance as well, and my girlfriend is a champion level dancer; the feisanna jigs are a little more uptempo then that), as well as adding a little bit more attack into the first notes of phrases will give a little more beat and interest.

I do like your use of ornamentation, mine is still at the rudimentary stage of playing. I have the GL book, but haven't started wading through it yet. I'm also thinking of the Scoiltrad lessons, but then I'd have to get a microphone, and then I'd have to record a clip to make sure it worked, then post it for people to hear, and oh, I'm just not ready yet...hehehe.

Aodhan

[djm]

Please don't read too much into my previous post. At my level, things that help me not to struggle so hard are all that I am looking for. I record and listen to myself and know that I am nowhere near ready to post clips or dominate anyone's session. I am not anywhere near a point of being satisfied with my playing because I am not really playing yet. Once I progress to the point of actually playing, then I will do as recommended here, and seek more input from others.

djm

[Rosemary Lane]

Seems to me that if you aren't playing as well as old Cork Porter there you should be paying more attention to what he *is* doing rather than to what he isn't doing. He knows what he is about.
The one thing he didn't mention (though it is perhaps implied) about Catherine McEvoy is her emphasis on loving to play. Once you learn to love to play-- and not play to impress somebody or to fit in or to make friends or to have something to do on Saturday night or to drink free beer or make a few dollars -- then you are solidly on your way. All these things are fine but they're secondary to playing for the love of it. After that you play because you can't help it.
But what do I know. I'm just a tune...