General increase in crudeness

Whitmores75087 · Post by **Whitmores75087** » Sun May 30, 2004 9:37 pm

I think my senses are fairly sturdy, being an average beer-drinking hetersexual male raised in Ireland. But dang! It's getting hard to deny that we're all becoming cruder. Recently I had occasion to re-organize my sheetmusic. I did it in front of TV. I haven't been a big TV viewer for a couple of years. Is it just me or has TV become RAUNCHY. I know it's not just me.

And the crudeness shines through on this board. The folks here are all "average", although mostly American. But average Americans. And here we are, making jokes about beastiality, masturbation and who knows what. Why am I saying all this? I dunno. I think that seeing a posting from someone who listed his "location": as Bumble**** was what set me off. Dale can delete a thread, but what does he do when the vulgarity and crudeness are coming through every pore.

Maybe this forum should be run like thesession.org. I've noticed that the policy there is pretty much zero tolerance.

Anyway, I'm going to make myself a committee of one, dedicated to civil speech and behavior. Anyone who disgrees can go to...eh....bed.

Jane · Post by **Jane** » Sun May 30, 2004 10:01 pm

Scary as it sounds I lurk here because as a group, these people are above average. I agree with you that it is discouraging to have to contend with the onslaught of unnecessary imagery and prose. The music is what brings most of us here. When it gets to be too much, it's time to tune it out and rip off a couple of jigs.

Jeferson · Post by **Jeferson** » Sun May 30, 2004 10:02 pm

Coming through every pore? I think that's a serious stretch of the truth.

Jef

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Sun May 30, 2004 10:06 pm

Quote@Whitmores75087

And the crudeness shines through on this board. The folks here are all "average", although mostly American. But average Americans.

There's no such thing as an "Average American". There's just too many of us of all sorts.

If this forum was ran zero-tolerance like other sites, it would no longer be "Poststructural".

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Sun May 30, 2004 10:12 pm

I can see it, even in my day-to-day life. When I was a kid, the word "butt" for a portion of the human anatomy was considered extremely vulgar...now I not only hear that all the time on the playground at my daughter's school, but also "that sucks" (or "you suck"), "screw this" and several other crudities that would have gotten me a hack on the bottom from the principal. My daughter's classmates make jokes about Mary Cary's breasts, right there in front of their teachers. I told a kid the other day that I found his constant use of "God" and "God damn" as a swear word offensive, and he looked at me like I'd suddenly grown two heads...in the world I grew up in, that simply wasn't done, whether you were religious or not (if for no other reason, out of respect for those who were)...nowadays people who object are considered "offensive." It's hard to spend much time in front of the TV without seeing or hearing something about human sexuality...as if there were nothing else in the word to talk about or show. I'm no prude, by any means, but it's excessive.

Redwolf

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Sun May 30, 2004 10:48 pm

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=18761

Whatever crudeness there might be on this board, in my opinion it is fairly inconsequential compared to the depth of genuine goodness that resides here.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Darwin · Post by **Darwin** » Sun May 30, 2004 11:09 pm

It's true that the general level of public crudity has increased in the States over the past 50 years or so.

On the other hand, the kids I knew way back then were extremely crude in private--and that included kids in the Methodist Youth Fellowship, the Baptist Royal Ambassadors, and the Boy Scouts of America.

So, maybe we just aren't as easily shocked as we used to be, and the words that we thought extreme have simply lost their punch. I'm not sure that's a terrible thing.

On the other hand, I never hear jokes about cripples and Niggers anymore, so maybe we aren't as crude as we used to be?

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Mon May 31, 2004 12:04 am

Many years ago when I was a young teenager there was a very old man, Mr. Rice, who lived in a very old, very large house that was pretty comfortable walking distance from my home.

I liked to go visit him because he knew odd things, and because he was lonely and he always went out of his way to make anyone feel welcome.

Anyway, one day the subject of vulgarity came up...perhaps I slipped up and said something, I honestly don't remember, but I was fairly crude and foul-mouthed as a youngster so it's certainly possible.

He pointed out the Aztec language had no curse words.

My response: "Cool!"

He looked at me and said, "You do realize, don't you, it's not the words that are truly vulgar; the true vulgarity is the concepts they represent, and it exists in the mind of the speaker."

True story.

--James

ApolloIncarnate · Post by **ApolloIncarnate** » Mon May 31, 2004 12:44 am

I notice a general trend in human social systems that can easily be observed in the 30's-current generations. First, a formal, reserved, and polite era is established that makes it a point to defy the natural primal feelings that are attached to instincts and horomones. Then, a new era arises by slowly pushing the line of deceny and accepts primal desires and actions, but does not keep them monitored properly. The cycle restarts by things like religious movements and people becoming disgusted with culture in general until they establish the beforementioned first era. Is it just me?

emmline · Post by **emmline** » Mon May 31, 2004 5:36 am

I don't know if the cycle would pan out to be as consistent and repetive as that, Apollo, but society does, without a doubt, ooze and slog dynamically forward, with human group instincts providing the checks and balances which keep it from crashing completely into the slime. There's always the transcendent and ineffable in humanity providing the upward pull.

susnfx · Post by **susnfx** » Mon May 31, 2004 7:29 am

Redwolf wrote:(if for no other reason, out of respect for those who were)...

I think that hits the nail on the head. We live in such an "it's all about me" time that respect for others' beliefs or feelings is almost nonexistent. We do good things, of course, and have discussions on the board where we express great respect for other cultures and people, but in our day-to-day lives there is a lack of common decency in a million little things we do and say each day. We stand in an elevator with other people and have a profanity-filled conversation with no consideration for the other people - we just don't care. Their feelings don't enter into how we want to express ourselves. In spite of the fact that there are many, many people who are deeply offended at the name of God being used as profanity, this use is extraordinarly commonplace and public - since "I" don't believe, "I" don't care whether it bothers you or not - I'll say whatever I want.

I see this sort of lack of respect in many aspects of everyday life where more self-control was exercised years ago. And I don't see an objection to this as prudish or trying to enforce my values on others, which is the most common retort. By using crude or profane behavior and speech around strangers we're forcing our values (or lack thereof) on them.

Sorry for the rant - this is something I've thought a lot about. These days I see a bunch of adults acting like jr. high school kids about bodily functions, sex, profanity, etc. To me, it's just about common courtesy, something we seem to be losing rapidly in our quest to be free of all restraint in word and deed.

Susan (who will now step off her soapbox)

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » Mon May 31, 2004 8:00 am

As a counterpoint, I am reminded of a traditional tune that's still played today (information from The Fiddler's companion

An Phis Fhliuch is a composition of one O'Farrell, an uilleann piper who published three important collections of Irish music between 1797 and 1810, and the first to publish a tutor for the improved Irish instrument.

Now, it's my understanding that "An Phis Fhliuch" doesn't exactly translate into something very prim and proper.

Shakespeare's plays, classics today and another example, are full of bawdy language.

Looking at real history (rather than the bowdlerized version in high school text books) I get the impression that except for the occasional Victorian-era public prudery, a little 'crudity' seems to be part of the normal discourse among average human beings. I believe that today's society has an unhealthy outlook on sexualty vs violence (It's ok to shoot someone on TV, but Janet Jackson's breast causes a national furor? To me, the first is far more abominable than the second).

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Mon May 31, 2004 8:25 am

Redwolf wrote:I can see it, even in my day-to-day life. When I was a kid, the word "butt" for a portion of the human anatomy was considered extremely vulgar...now I not only hear that all the time on the playground at my daughter's school, but also "that sucks" (or "you suck"), "screw this" and several other crudities that would have gotten me a hack on the bottom from the principal. My daughter's classmates make jokes about Mary Cary's breasts, right there in front of their teachers. I told a kid the other day that I found his constant use of "God" and "God damn" as a swear word offensive, and he looked at me like I'd suddenly grown two heads...in the world I grew up in, that simply wasn't done, whether you were religious or not (if for no other reason, out of respect for those who were)...nowadays people who object are considered "offensive." It's hard to spend much time in front of the TV without seeing or hearing something about human sexuality...as if there were nothing else in the word to talk about or show. I'm no prude, by any means, but it's excessive.

Redwolf

I don't like it either and I agree that it's excessive, even though I recently expressed a preference for over-the-top humour to censorship. What I'd really like to know is how to tone this side of modern life down without losing the very real gains we have won in recent times. To begin, just a couple of quick observations. First, Darwin is right; that language was around and in use when I was a kid although not nearly as openly. Also James' point that the thought might matter more than the word is well taken, although how it might matter is something I'll come to.

How do I think we've made progress? When I was a child, paedophilia was not only tolerated officially at all levels of authority from local to government but its very existence was not openly talked about except for vague warnings from parents. I wonder if those parents actually realised that we not only knew exactly what we were being so vaguely warned against but could have provided them with a list of prime suspects—often priests, teachers and scout masters. Now there is some action being taken by organisations and celebrity paedophiles are being outed by the press regularly. IMO, that is progress.

What has this got to do with speech? Like millions of others, my introductory lesson in reproductive biology was delivered by an embarrassed nd unprepared mother when I innocently repeated to her something said to me by an older boy that I didn't understand. I was about 10 at the time, possibly a bit younger. My mother flew into a rage when I mouthed the taboo phrase and didn't calm down much when it became obvious to her that I hadn't the faintest idea what it meant. This is the parodox—not only was I supposed not to know those phrases, I was also supposed to know that I was supposed not to know those phrases. Even at that early age I realised that this was wholly irrational and that there had to be a better way than this. It reminds me of the old nanny joke:

Nanny: Jane, say 'breakfast'.
Jane: Can't.
Nanny: What can't you say, Jane?
Jane: Can't say 'breakfast.'

First, there's the language. Second, there's the thought. This enters in two ways. We have to be able to conceive of what is (or isn't) being spoken of. Also someone might have the thought corresponding to the desire but not speak of it and/or not act on it. Third there is the activity itself. Now consider paedophilia. What I want most of all is that people not engage in it. To achieve that I would sacrifice all the rest. We will never achieve this unless we are vigilant and unless our children are vigilant. To be vigilant, they have to know what paedophilia is and how to sense danger. For that they need a working vocabulary and the ability to have thoughts about paedophiles. I hope they have both. To police a boundary you have to know not only where that boundary is but also what lies on the other side. The knowledge required for this does not require a loss of innocence on the part of children but a loss of partly self-inflicted blindness on the part of adults. Since those adults were once themselves more knowing children their blindness and misplaced trust was all the more staggering.

What do we make of someone who has paedophile thoughts but doesn't talk about them or act upon them? I doubt very much whether having these thoughts is dependent on language and I feel certain that the urges would exist even if nobody ever talked about them. I have no idea what it would be like to have these urges myself, except by analogy with urges I do have. Since I don't think anyone can eradicate the urges, I think it best that we openly acknowledge them and talk about them. If someone has those urges but, as a matter of successful policy, manages to suppress them in action, I feel a little sad but relieved and at least a little admiring. What they can control they do, and they harm nobody in the process.

Jon-M · Post by **Jon-M** » Mon May 31, 2004 9:08 am

I think Peeplj's story about Mr. Rice is quite interesting: the Aztecs had no profanity; on the other hand, they had a culture in which the brutal sacrifice of thousands of human beings was central and culturally sanctioned.
I think most of our social attitudes about sexuality are hypocritical and probably harmful: almost all of us enjoy sex and it's probably one of the least harmful activities we can engage in as long as we are doing it with consenting adult human beings. It's our society's smarmy attitude about it that gives words that I won't write here since they would probably offend some folks their power.
What I find obscene is the commodification of sexuality, the use of it to sell magazines, cars, sporting events, etc. This removes it from the context of a loving, or at least friendly, interchange between two people and makes it an instrument of manipulation and power: THAT is obscene because it removes the warmth from human relationships and teaches our kids nasty ways of relating to each other.
By way of example, I thought the Seinfeld episode about the abstention from masturbation contest was one of the funniest shows I ever saw: it wasn't dirty because it did not deal with masturbation as something dirty.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Mon May 31, 2004 10:17 am

On subjects such as sexuality and masturbation, I am very liberal. There is nothing obscene about these concepts--that is, until they are reduced to the level of a crude joke.

What I find obscene is the growing disregard and disrespect people have for each other both online and also in our day-to-day world. I am distressed when people quote statistics and obviously don't care about the lives the numbers represent, for example, or when basic politeness is thought to be too much trouble.

What I also find distressing is where history teaches this progression leads if nothing happens to alter it.

--James