Ornamentation--Articulations vs. Grace Notes

[Darwin]

Having gotten Grey Larsen's Essential Tin Whistle Toolbox, and seeing his point that "ornamentation" is an unfortunate choice of terminology for what is really better described as "articulation", I'm beginning to wonder about the use of real ornamentation--grace notes--in ITM, but mainly in slow airs. (I have only one polka, one slip jig, and one hornpipe--none of them played either often or well.)

From my non-ITM background, I have a tendency to use lots of grace notes in slow tunes (hammer-ons and pull-offs on the guitar). I do use cuts to articulate notes, but I also feel the need for grace notes, as well, as I work out variations on various slow airs. Is this approach foreign to ITM? Most discussions seem to center around dance music, so I thought that points made in such discussions might not apply to slow airs and songs. Should I just play the bare-bones melodies as presented? (I'm learning from book-CD combos.)

As I've said before, I play alone and am not particularly interested in ITM, per se, but I still want to know what is considered "standard".

[emmline]

Bumping you, because I'd like to read a response. (Maybe if you listen to some recordings of slow airs you'll be able to discern whether they're ornamenting or articulating...dunno.)

[Byll]

Hi, Mike: This type of topic normally elicits great mounds of discussion.

You are correct in your assessment concerning traditional ornamentation. It is not truly ornamentation; it amounts to a change in the air flow - usually, but not always brought about by finger manipulation, which creates a form of articulation...The note produced by the 'ornamentation' is not important. What IS important is the 'sound' of the articulation, and where and how perfectly it is achieved.

I understand - and respect - those to whom the purity of Irish traditional music is of paramount importance. There is a stark beauty in the juxtaposition of pure melody, sans harmony, with articulations that are crisp, well executed, and accepted as the norm...For me, personally, a little goes a long way...

In my own musical world - and it seems in yours - there is a place for the marriage of traditional Irish ornamentation with grace notes, and other 'classical' ornamentation. I find the mixture interesting, sustaining, and it provides a larger blank page for creative arranging and improvising.

As Mrs. Capulet said, 700 years ago, 'Do what ye will...' I would like to hope that Bach would not have turned up his nose at the addition of a tap or a cut in an improvisatory moment in one of his Brandenburgs...

Best.
Byll

[Cayden]

I am not sure what you are saying to be honest so left this alone for a bit.

I can say this much, air playing is an instrumental reflection of the [sean nos] singing. When you listen to good singers in the sean nos style you'll find that in a lot of cases they would embellish the plain notes of the songs rather elaborately. Listen for example to Willie Clancy's playing of The Trip we took over the Mountain, Bhean Dubh an Ghleanna or An Buachaill Caol Dubh, there's a lot more going on there than mere articulation.

[jim stone]

Following the rule less is more, do both, I say.

[dubhlinn]

hello everybody,
why is everybody wasting so much time and effort with stuff that should not be heard outside of a lecture hall?
ITM is a living,breathing artform unique in its depth and simplicity.It does not matter in the slightest if you throw in a "fiddly bit" when the notion takes you.YOU are playing the tune not vice versa.Don't be afraid of the tune-it won't bite you.Listen to some of the great bands -Bothy Band,Altan etc.- and it is obvious that the players are not playing note for note with each other.
I mean, where would we be if nobody ever strayed off the page?, no Miles,no Ella,no ( I could go on all night here!).
Play away to your hearts content,ENJOY the music,it comes from the soul not the brain,you are a channel through which it passes and YOU are not HIM or HER, YOU are YOU. if it sounds ok and YOU like it then DO IT.
Now that I have gotten that off my chest I'm off to play a few tunes to myself

bfn,
D.

[feadogin]

Play away to your hearts content,ENJOY the music,it comes from the soul not the brain

Hi Dubhlinn,

Like you, I am definitely of the "just play it" school of musicianship, but different people learn in different ways. I now realize that some people really do learn music "through the brain," and this type of discussion helps them.

For the rest of us, though, as another piper in my class said last week, (to paraphrase) "The more I try to think about what I'm doing, the worse I play!"

Justine

[Brian Lee]

I mean, where would we be if nobody ever strayed off the page?

You'd be in a Great Highland Pipe band. That one's simple enough.

[Darwin]

why is everybody wasting so much time and effort with stuff that should not be heard outside of a lecture hall?
ITM is a living,breathing artform unique in its depth and simplicity.It does not matter in the slightest if you throw in a "fiddly bit" when the notion takes you.YOU are playing the tune not vice versa.Don't be afraid of the tune-it won't bite you.Listen to some of the great bands -Bothy Band,Altan etc.- and it is obvious that the players are not playing note for note with each other.

For myself, not being a part of any ITM community, not having access to such, and not having either the funds to buy, or the time to listen to, lots of recordings, I was just curious about where the "edges" are seen as being.

It's not a question of being restricted by the information, but I think it's a shame to remain ignorant when I have a resource like C&F at my disposal.

Peter's answer is particularly useful to me. In the first place, because I see him as being a real ITM "insider" (correct me if I'm wrong), and in the second place because I've heard what I believe to be similar singing in related traditions ("Land A-growin'" from Ewan McColl, or "Fair and Tender Ladies" from Jean Ritchie), as well as a bit of actual Irish singing (Margaret Barry). Unfortunately, the only thing I have by Willie Clancy is a pair of jigs on the pipes, with Michael Gorman on fiddle.

[dubhlinn]

I mean, where would we be if nobody ever strayed off the page?

You'd be in a Great Highland Pipe band. That one's simple enough.

Mmmm,

Miles davis,Ella Fitzgerald or a highland pipe band.

That's gonna be a real tough call.

[BoneQuint]

It's even better when it comes from the soul AND the brain. Each taking its place, and staying out of the way of the other...

[talasiga]

Darwin, my thinking on this goes something like this:-

From a modal/melodic perspective the whole phenomenon is articulation
but from a chordal/harmonic perspective, which necessarily sees some of the phenomenon as essential and other parts as optional, the other parts are called "ornamentation".

When I play with melodic tradition musicians these distinctions do not need to be drawn out when discussing a composition because the so-called "ornamentations" and "grace" notes are essential and intrinsic to the life of the music and are spontaneously grasped as such.

However, if there is a chordal factor to be considered
(eg the ubiquitous chord playing guitarist who refuses to play arpeggios)
then the artificial exercise of segregating the core from the ornament
comes into play
for the benefit of establishing the harmonic architecture.

I am sorry, if once again, I have not expressed myself well
but I am a picture person and not so much a wordsmith.

And please let me know if this is relevant to your issues.

[brewerpaul]

I would like to hope that Bach would not have turned up his nose at the addition of a tap or a cut in an improvisatory moment in one of his Brandenburgs...
Best.
Byll

Actually, most Baroque musicians would turn their noses up at a player who DIDN'T add ornamentation! It was pretty much assumed by composers of the era that players would add appropriate ornamentation, and that no two performances would be exactly the same. There was one composer, whose name I can't recall, who insisted that his music be played as written, but he was definitely in the minority. Quite a few writers of the period wrote treatises on proper ornamentation (which varied from French, to Italian, to German, etc). Telemann wrote a series of "Methodical Sonatas" which included the plain unornamented instrumental line, and then a version with LOTS of ornamentation-- more than a player would generally include, but designed to give students an idea of how to ornament different passages.