The trouble with young players....

[StevieJ]

Here's one of many thought-provoking observations from a fine new book (mentioned by Peter Laban a few pages back), <a href="http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... um=1">Move Your Fingers: The life and music of Chris Langan</a>.

<blockquote>The trouble with young players learning nowadays (and they didn't have this problem before radio and the gramophone) is that they hear really good players playing difficult tunes well and want to play them right away rather than learning easy tunes that will make them into good pipers.

Chris Langan</blockquote>

Discuss with reference to whistle players, jaw-dropping tracks, ownership of expensive instruments, etc. Anyone?

[Jeferson]

Wow. I think the same can be said for most of humanity and in most situations. Life's busy... we seek out pleasures... and shortcuts to get there. Too often, we focus on where we want to end up and miss out on the day to day pleasures of working our way there. We look at the neighbour's oceanside cabin and wonder if there's a shortcut to getting our own.

And it's not just material things we pine after. We pursue the magic abthrustercizer that will allegedly allow us to eat as always while slimming away. Or the vitamin supplement that will enhance the desired body part.

If we're honest with ourselves, I think that most of us will find that we gravitate toward some of those magic shortcuts at some points in life. Some of those shortcuts are in fact wise decisions (investing a bit now for retirement?), while others are complete rip-offs (send us $29 and we'll forward you your prize).

I've recently gotten to know an eleven year old boy who has a winning smile and a real competitive spirit. Loves games of any kind. Never gives up. Is willing to do any work necessary to be successful. Looks on the bright side of most any situation. Two years ago he was diagnosed with muscular dystrophy, which his older brother also had. He's since gone from walking to using crutches to most recently, a motorized wheelchair. Last spring he watched his brother pass away at the age of eighteen. He knows that he's headed down the same road.

And this kid, this gem of a human being, keeps on working. And smiling. And competing any way he can, trying to avoid all shortcuts that would rob him of an opportunity to experience the game. He has every reason to whine and complain, but he chooses not to. He possesses something that I know I often lack.

I'm rambling here, so I suppose my point is that, well, life is full of struggles and successes. If we try to avoid all the struggles and land all the successes, are we really successful?

Jef

Edited to fix a spelling mistake. If only I had a better keyboard...


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jeferson on 2002-02-26 23:51 ]</font>

[Eldarion]

On 2002-02-26 23:10, StevieJ wrote:
<blockquote>The trouble with young players learning nowadays (and they didn't have this problem before radio and the gramophone) is that they hear really good players playing difficult tunes well and want to play them right away rather than learning easy tunes that will make them into good pipers.

Chris Langan</blockquote>

Thats a really interesting observation. It has never occurred to me that learning easy tunes can make one a better player than learning difficult tunes. How is this true, besides making the rhythm nuances more easy to grasp? Why is learning difficult tunes not as beneficial as learning easy tunes for a learning musician?

Is this why it is not so beneficial for learning IR-trad players to listen to modern IR-trad supergroups?

More questions than actual comments I know - Seeking to be enlightened..

P.S. Steve, in your previous email you mentioned that I should try to listen to the "minor league players". Any specific names? I can't imagine anyone who has recorded albums being "minor league"!

[Andreas]

I don't really know if it is better to start with easy songs either. When I started to play the violin (no fiddle )at the age of 16, I just couldn't bear to start with some silly little tune that was boring and just too little MUSIC. Instead I played much harder pieces with moderate success. Then it turned out that violin just wasn't MY instrument after all, but I would certainly not even have started to play if I would have been "forced" to play easy music that I didn't like. I think the best way is to play the music you want to play and pick up the technique as you go along.

[brewerpaul]

One thing that I have learned in my 50+ years is that very difficult things can be learned by nearly anyone if they take the time to break the task down into very small, easy to manage parts. This is something that younger people sometimes have a hard time with-- our media pushes the concept of instant gratification to the ultimate.
Applied to whistling, this makes the learning of simple tunes in the beginning a great way to learn. Play a tune you already know inside out eg Mary Had a Little Lamb, and you can concentrate on what your fingers are doing rather than on what the next note is supposed to sound like. If that's too much to handle, work on the first measure of Mary, or even the first 2 notes. In time it will come. I remember learning to play whistle using Bill Ochs' Clarke Tinwhistle book and being totally wowed by his playing of Sean Sa Ceo, and wondering how I could ever achieve such a feat. Kept on plugging at the easy tunes, working my way up through the tougher ones, and one day, Sean was simply THERE. Patince, Grasshoppa, patience...
I read somewhere that Yo Yo Ma's dad taught him the Bach Suites for unaccompanied cello right from the beginning. VERY tough music, but he taught them to Yo Yo one measure at a time, over a long period of time. Seems to have worked pretty well...

[Graphics Guy]

Yep...I started out on "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" when I first picked up the whistle. Those many hours ago, But I wax nostalgic. Now I do the more advanced tunes,
Ones such as "Mary had a Little lamb" and "Cockles and Mussels". Just joking seriously, you have to start somewhere, starting simply will cut down your frustration immensly. I figure in about 30 years I'll sound as good my wife

Dan

[jbarter]

I think another difficulty for people learning whistle these days (and not just the youngsters) is the wealth of material available to them. I know this may not seem a problem at first sight but one of the great joys of Irish traditional music is that it is not one type of music but a wonderfully varied collection of styles. The older players who learnt all their music from local players would become steeped in their own particular 'musical dialect'. Now players are bombarded with all the differing versions available and unfortunately their playing can become a mishmash of them all which could eventually lead to the demise of the regionality of playing styles.

[Graphics Guy]

On 2002-02-27 08:06, jbarter wrote:
I think another difficulty for people learning whistle these days (and not just the youngsters) is the wealth of material available to them. I know this may not seem a problem at first sight but one of the great joys of Irish traditional music is that it is not one type of music but a wonderfully varied collection of styles. The older players who learnt all their music from local players would become steeped in their own particular 'musical dialect'. Now players are bombarded with all the differing versions available and unfortunately their playing can become a mishmash of them all which could eventually lead to the demise of the regionality of playing styles.

Hey !!!! Thats not true..I only D/L 1500 tunes,BEFORE I got the whistle...Well ...OK
Maybe it is a good point (Just injecting a little levity)
Dan

[Tyghress]

On 2002-02-26 23:10, StevieJ wrote:
Here's one of many thought-provoking observations from a fine new book (mentioned by Peter Laban a few pages back), <a href="http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... um=1">Move Your Fingers: The life and music of Chris Langan</a>.

<blockquote>The trouble with young players learning nowadays (and they didn't have this problem before radio and the gramophone) is that they hear really good players playing difficult tunes well and want to play them right away rather than learning easy tunes that will make them into good pipers.

Chris Langan</blockquote>

Discuss with reference to whistle players, jaw-dropping tracks, ownership of expensive instruments, etc. Anyone?

What does this book quote have to do with expensive instruments?

[TelegramSam]

Well if you can point me to some easy tunes, I'd be much obliged...

I can play about 2 1/2 songs right now, and not well at all.

*blech*

Oh well. I'm still good at annoying the neighborhood dogs, no?

[Martin Milner]

When I first started playing music it was Twinkle Twinkle & Baa Baa Black Sheep etc. I have to say even for a 6 year old I found the tunes dull. Part of my delight in Irish music is that I don't have to go through that stage again. (shudder)

I think many non-Ireland based players of Irish music would like to have 20 odd tunes that would make a good basis for their repertoire, and of course the problem is it depends on where you are, and what is played at the local session/class. I dropped a Mandolin class last Spring partly because so many tunes were being thrown at me, with variations, none of which were individually far beyond my ability, but taken as a whole, they scared me off. Now I am happy to pick up a tune here and there, amd maybe learn one new tune every week or two.

[StevieJ]

Thats a really interesting observation. It has never occurred to me that learning easy tunes can make one a better player than learning difficult tunes. How is this true, besides making the rhythm nuances more easy to grasp? Why is learning difficult tunes not as beneficial as learning easy tunes for a learning musician?

I interpret Chris Langan's comment to mean that people try to run before they can walk. I don't think easy tunes means nursery rhymes: I think it means all the great old bog-standard jigs, reels and hornpipes that are very simple compared with the virtuoso compositions or settings of Sean Maguire, Liz Carroll, etc. etc. but which of course are way way beyond Baa Baa Black Sheep.

Some younger players seem to learn only from recent records and so miss out on all this basic Irish repertoire. A couple I know came down for the weekend session at the Catskills Irish Arts Week this summer, and although they can play lots of fancy modern compositions, and very well as it happens (not always the case), they knew virtually none of the tunes being played at the sessions. "What ARE all these tunes they're playing," one complained to me, and the answer was: standard stuff, being played by the session leaders (Paddy O'Brien, Tommy Peoples and Mary Bergin) so that the maximum number of people could join in. When I say standard stuff I don't mean the Kesh jig and the Boys of Bluehill, but standard stuff nevertheless.

As a result, these two couldn't enjoy what I felt was as a fantastic opportunity to play in a session with great players, with superb lift, steady tempo - great great music. One of them seemed to spend the entire weekend running from pub to pub looking for a session with the kinds of tunes he played and didn't find one. The other sat at the bar and drank.

So I think the standard fare gives you a common repertoire that you can sit down and play with players far above your ability level, and absorb so much by listening, reevaluating what you do in the light of what they do, and so on. And thus really share and enjoy the music, as well as develop a far broader understanding than you'll ever get from records.

Why would Chris Langan think that simpler tunes are more beneficial to a learning musician? Probably because you can concentrate on making a nice job of the tune rather than grappling with its technical difficulties. And of course, he's talking from a piper's perspective. I'd think to be a piper you'd have to be able to make a great job of a wee tune like Fraher's jig, rather than learn some fancy Davy Spillane repertoire.

I know I'd have more respect for, and would much rather listen to, someone who can play a simple tune with a nice steady rhythm and an understanding of the phrasing of the tune, with no ornamentation to speak of, than I would have for someone who attempts a complicated tune that he or she cannot master or make a nice job of.

I wouldn't say that learners should not listen to supergroups, but I would say that it is a pity if these supergroups are their primary or sole source of exposure to traditional music. They'll only have a very partial picture of what traditional music is down at the grassroots level, which is where they can get the most out of it.

Eldarion, I regret using the expression "minor league players" - the sporting/competitive analogy is totally inappopriate. Of course I meant very good players, but the kind of good players that you won't find on best-selling CDs. The kind of players that labels like Topic put out so many gems on in the 1960s and 70s.

Or the kind of old man Peter talks about, sitting in a small pub somewhere in Ireland with a whistle or a fiddle. Unspectacular players, but who make music that can thrill you. Of course you won't find many of these in Singapore, but one day you'll make the pilgrimage to the Holy Land I'm sure.

Tyghress, what's the connection with expensive whistles? Mainly I was making a tongue-in-cheek reference to the debate in another recent thread. Although I think there is a parallel in there somewhere with people buying expensive whistles thinking that this is going to make them a better player...

Edited for typos.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: StevieJ on 2002-02-27 11:20 ]</font>

[Jeferson]

A little more on the topic this time. I think the link to expensive instruments can be found in the advice located on the whistle shop's pages, where Thom recommends that beginners start with a cheap D before heading off to a more expensive one. Although I note he has recently added a reference to a Silkstone.
http://www.thewhistleshop.com/beginners ... /recom.htm

When does one feel past the beginner stage and pursue other instruments? Are there other reasons why some do this?
Definitely linked to the quote, in my opinion.

Jef

[Glengary]

Although I am not a player who is young (middle aged more accurate), on the matter of whistle proficiency, I am young on the expereince curve. In buying the Deluxe Whistle kit from The Whistle Shop (Thanks, Thom!) I have found the book and CD very helpful. The CD is filled with steps and stages and I have "listended ahead" in anticipation of what was to come. However, I really have made a point of doing many reps on a lesson before moving forward and in going back now and then.
I equated it with learning basketball. In high school, we'd drill the fundamentals every time and when in a pinch, it was the fundamentals I got me through. Anyway, my rationale in taking it slow is to develop more "muscle memory" in the technique (e.g. the fingering). Consequently, I agree with the comment posted above on the "breaking it into pieces". (Like the old adage "you eat an elephant a bite at a time".) Besides, having been a sailor (vs. "boater"), we all know that it's about the journey not the destination.

[Martin Milner]

Ah StevieJ,

Now I'm with you 100%. I don't have many CDs of "modern traditional" as I might call it, but I do have some recordings of traditional music "as I think it should be", again for want of another phrase.

On "Bringing it all Back Home" there's a marvellous rendition of St Anne's Reel, played on 3 fiddles with a bass in the background. The sinuous interplay between the 3 fiddlers is so natural and unselfconscious, and the rhythm so driving, that I always smile as it comes to the climax; an appreciative listener at the session can be heard to chip in with a "hooey" towards the end. Truly energetic music.

I think the guy who sat at the bar drinking had the right idea. I've yet to play in a session, but I've sat at the bar through a few, and had a wonderful time.