Staple material: Brass or....?

Brian Lee · Post by **Brian Lee** » Tue May 18, 2004 6:14 pm

I found a local supplier of tubing in the correct diameter for the staple of the new chanter. Out of curiosity since the store had the tubing in both brass and aluminum I picked up a couple of 12" lengths in both metals.

Now I assume the actual metal itself has basically no bearing on the tone of the chanter as I can also hear very little if any diffeence between brass and aluminum whistles from the same maker. So my question is this:

Is there a reason brass seems to be the favored material for staples? I've seen a few in copper as well though usually these are rolled from sheet stock (as I've seen them anyway.) I've never seen any in aluminum and while I wouldn't expect it to be any dofferent regarding tone it may be a lot easier to find out in my neck of the woods.

I know aluminum is a softer metal than brass but even so I don't expect it to collapse under the normal stresses of tying a reed. Would there be any other considerations as far as using this as a good staple material or not?

Thanks.

djm · Post by **djm** » Tue May 18, 2004 8:32 pm

Brian, you should NEVER get aluminum anywhere near your pipes. It is a well known fact that aluminum will react with the natural oils in the wood and cause your chanter to permanently change pitch, not to mention the fact that aluminum tends to completely rust out so fast.

Actually, I suspect that its just a matter of aluminum tubing not being so commonly available. I doubt the softness of aluminum versus brass or copper has much to do with anything, as the first thing you would normally do with sheet brass or copper is to anneal it before rolling anyway.

djm

fel bautista · Post by **fel bautista** » Tue May 18, 2004 10:15 pm

Aluminum NEVER rusts ( a new title for a Neal Young album for sure) but always Oxidies(sp?? never sure about that-see next comment) . Ferrous materials rust. 25+ years later and I'm still ticked over that quiz, -5 pts, Mr. Bautista

Brian Lee · Post by **Brian Lee** » Wed May 19, 2004 1:55 am

Thanks guys. Yeah, I know I need to watch out for that awful aluminum stuff!

Actually, I figured if they use it to make cans that can hold 12oz. of Coke without rusting (talk about corrosive stuff!) then it would probably be safe for my chanter. The chanter I have now is a polymer resin material with a brass sleeve in the reed seat - but I should probably be on guard for an adverse reaction to the brass/resin and the release of toxic nerve gasses that will cause me to go blind, or worse...become pregnant or something.

Come to think on it...I wonder if I could market that and sell it in the SLPC store?

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Wed May 19, 2004 2:21 am

fel bautista wrote:Aluminum <snip> always Oxidies

Unless it is anodized prior to being exposed to oxygen or stored in an oxygen-free environment.

Aluminum oxidizing is the chemical equivalent of iron rusting

Aluminum "rust" doens't flake off and expose new aluminum to oxidize as iron rust will, so the oxidized layer is actually a protective layer to keep the aluminum inside the aluminum oxide safe from oxygen...

My chanters play in tune much easier with rolled staples, so I use copper sheet to make mine.

When I tried "expanding" brass tubing with my rolling mandril, I always got wrinkles and aluminum always split. I can expand copper tubing OK, but it is rather harder to find and buy than just getting a 2-1/2 piece of copper "flashing" cut off the end of a roll of a roofer friend I know. Cheaper roofers use aluminum flashing today, but Allegheny County NC has the highest millionaire population (in the summer) building stuff up here for their vacation homes and they want copper, it seems.

srfmowman · Post by **srfmowman** » Wed May 19, 2004 5:02 am

Brian,
I made a very nice reed with an 3/16" aluminum tubing staple. I can't tell a difference in tone between brass and aluminum. The only problem with the aluminum is it is very easy to bend the tubing during and after the reed is made.
John

Brian Lee · Post by **Brian Lee** » Wed May 19, 2004 8:35 am

OK, it seems to be pretty much what I expected. Thanks all for the replies so far. Hey John see you on Saturday!

One more silly question: obviously it's a good idea to aneal the copper strips used in making bridles, but what about brass? Should it be anealed also if being used for a bridle? How about the tubing for a staple - it doesn't seem to need to bend as far. Curiouser and curiouser....

djm · Post by **djm** » Wed May 19, 2004 9:23 am

Both copper and brass are easier to work if annealed first, whether for staples or just for the bridle.

djm

Bigbore · Post by **Bigbore** » Wed May 19, 2004 10:59 am

Copper's plenty easy to work - you don't need to anneal it. I've made lots of brass tube staples, too. Never annealed 'em, unless I wanted to expand the diameter. Brass makes a lousy bridle if you ask me. Too springy. Thicker copper's good for bridles - hobbie shop's have it.

Brian Lee · Post by **Brian Lee** » Wed May 19, 2004 5:16 pm

OK, next question - I know that moving the staple in or out relative to the slips affects the tuning of the octaves..primarily the second octave relative to the first if I remember correctly. But I can't find in any of my books which direction does what.

Help!!

Move staple in - flatten second octave?? Vice versa???

Thanks all!

B~

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Wed May 19, 2004 5:47 pm

Push staple in to sharpen octave (or make the next staple with slightly bigger IDs).
Rush staple or pull staple out to flatten octave (or roll next staple with slightly smaller IDs).

See my reedmaking notes that I took in my reedmaking class.

Ted · Post by **Ted** » Fri May 21, 2004 1:17 am

I use 0.025" thick copper for bridles. K&S tubing and sheet metal displays in your local hardware or hobby shops are the ticket. Staples are rolled from 0.020" to 0.022" copper. I don't anneal the copper. I don't use brass, but suggest 0.016" for staples and annealing it. Some use 0.020" copper for bridles. Sterling silver is nice to roll, but is unnecessary and makes lousy bridles. 10K gold has the advantage of not getting oxide build-up in a reed played for many years.

Ted

Brian Lee · Post by **Brian Lee** » Fri May 21, 2004 8:40 am

fancypiper wrote:Push staple in to sharpen octave (or make the next staple with slightly bigger IDs).
Rush staple or pull staple out to flatten octave (or roll next staple with slightly smaller IDs).

See my reedmaking notes that I took in my reedmaking class.

I just got an error page when I clicked on your link there...sorry.

Now am I correct in the thinking that when inserting or pulling the staple in or out further from the slips that it effects the upper octave much more than the lower? So if the bottom octave is in tune, but the upper is flat, pushing the staple in slightly, then seating the whole reed slightly further into the chanter throat should cure this right?

Thanks a million

B~

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Fri May 21, 2004 9:16 pm

The link should have worked, it does from here.The revelant portion:

Basic reed adjustment rules and their effects:

1. This section is a work in progress
2. Individual notes are more easily adjusted to play flatter than sharper.
3. Sliding the chanter reed further into the reed seat - Sharpens pitch overall, the top hand sharpens more than the bottom hand. The largest effect is on Back D.
4. Sliding the chanter reed further out of the reed seat - Flattens pitch overall, the top hand flattens more than the bottom hand. The largest effect is on Back D.
5. Opening the reed lips flattens the reed and it will need more air to play
6. Closing the reed lips sharpens the reed and it will need less air to play. If the reed is too closed, it can cause you to lose the "hard" D and gain an "autocran"
7. If the 2nd octave is flat, bind tip, unwrap from the staple and insert the staple approx 1/8" further into blades. If the 2nd octave is sharp, use the same technique to withdraw the staple.
8. If the 2nd octave is sharp, you can also try putting "rushes" into the staple
9. Have patience before final adjustments. Play several days or weeks and make small adjustments at a time.

Eugene Lambe's tips from the class in Elkins 1995:
Double Reed Parameters (Things you may need to adjust)

1. Staple inside Diameter
2. Taper of Staple
3. Head width
4. Length of finished head
5. Shape of head
6. Length, nature and shape of scrape

Reed Adjustment

1. Check the pitch of A.
2. Check bottom and back D against tenor drone.
3. If back D is flat, chop tip.
4. If G is sharp and A is flat, reed is too strong. Close lips and/or sand tip.
5. If octave is flat, bind tip, unwrap and insert staple approx 1/8" further into blades. If octave is sharp, withdraw staple.
6. Have patience before final adjustments. Play several days or weeks and make small adjustments at a time.

There is a lot more than that because when you insert the staple further, it tends to open the lips, flattening the bottom octave some, so you may have to adjust the bridle to cure that. It will affect both octaves, so you have to mess around a lot with staple insertion and lip opening to get it just right. I actually had 2 bridles on one reed that worked great in tuning on A, G and some effect on the F, but I no longer use that design (never was able to make a good 2nd reed from that design), so the memory is vague.

Usually, different recepies for reeds won't work well, but I have seen differend designs work well for flat chanters, so if you ever get a chance, try some reed swapping. You might find a design that works better than your current one.[/quote]

Royce · Post by **Royce** » Fri May 28, 2004 1:06 am

fancypiper wrote:Push staple in to sharpen octave (or make the next staple with slightly bigger IDs).
Rush staple or pull staple out to flatten octave (or roll next staple with slightly smaller IDs).

See my reedmaking notes that I took in my reedmaking class.

I think it's more helpful to think of seating the reed in or out in terms of setting general octave intonation, rather than connecting it in a major way with changing the relationship between octaves. The main point of pushing a reed in or out is to set botton and back D an octave apart, or usually, whatever interval you use to cheat back D into tune--some leave it a hair flat so it's in tune better dropping out of the upper octave, because if you set it up so it's in perfect tune in the lower octave, most of the time it will be out of tune coming down to it. Where you can usually blow it into pitch by gradually increasing up the chanter in the lower octave, and thus play in perfect tune there as well even if set a hair flattish, it's a lot harder to try to drop perfectly into tune in a typically fast and abrupt octave drop change to back D. Or forget that advanced thinking, and just think of setting both D's in perfect octave tune in the lower octave.

The basic relationship between octaves is controlled first by staple size/proportions, and if necessary, by rushing the bore or in severe cases, bore reaming/sanding/tuning to expand the bore in places. In a perfect world with the right staple and a proper bore design, both octaves will be in tune with the reed shoved in or out in any position. If low A is intoned properly, meaning, at the right pitch relative to the rest of the lower octave, it will both be in tune to high A, because the pop will come at a perfect double frequency (it's just math guys) of whatever low A is set to. It would be easy to go off on a tangent about E tunings and high B and other upper octave intonation problems, but those are due to imperfections in the basic design of a bore, usually a wide bore, magic, not science. In a perfect world, with a perfect reed and bore design, both octaves would mathematically mirror each other one octave apart. If you had the reed shoved in too far, both upperhands would be sharp, pulled out too far, both upperhands too flat.

The basic pitch of the reed, again, given a proper design for the chanter, is adjusted by opening and closing the lips. More open makes the overall pitch flatter, more closed, sharper. This is the overall pitch of either entire octave.

Having layed out these basic concepts, we get into interactions:

If you open the lips of a reed, even in a perfect world, the base pitch of the instrument is changed. It also plays a bit harder. It also tends to some extent, usually a very slight extent, does flatten out more on the upperhand, both upperhands, more than the lowerhand. (And we'll set aside for the discussion, the fact that octave E's often change at different rates and other side effects.) The primary effect however, remains a very even and predictable overall base pitch change. You should not think of this as the primary way to make a chanter harder or anything else though, because if what you want is a harder chanter at the same pitch, this won't get you there at all. That's more complicated.

If you shove a reed into the seat, it does also raise the base pitch of the chanter, and sometimes by quite a bit. But what it mainly does, and drastically so, is change the basic intonation, the basic relationship of all the notes in the octave--either octave--and violently shoots back D up or down in pitch far far more than the overall base pitch of the chanter.

Now, I know it's more convenient to think that you've got a reed playing at the right strength and responding well, and gee, it would be great just to shove it in or out and everything would fix itself, but it isn't the right way to think about setting up your chanter. A lot of guys will shove a reed in to bring up the overall pitch for instance, and then tape every note to correct intonation. I guess that will work, but it's a bit backward. That's why it can take weeks or months to bring a reed down to where it really needs to be, by sanding, clipping, and bridling, by someone preferable playing it all the time and making adjustments as you go.

Royce