A sincere question about piping and pipers

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:41 pm

A contributing factor, IMO, is related to the difficulty in learning to play the UPs successfully. If you've succeeded, or think you're succeeding, your're probably above average. Anyone knows people who are above average are usually jerks!

So, you get a forum of mostly successful pipers, ie people who play that damned thing on the knee, you have a higher probability of knee-jerk reactions.

Remember when you said to the flute forum..."you guys are beautiful." And then came along a thread that had to be locked? It just doesn't happen so much on the flute forum...those guys are generally nice people and know how to take a deep breath.

The whistle players...well, there's a lot of good ones there, but they don't tend to breath so deeply (wink-wink). You're familiar with the expression "short, fat, and happy" (no, not you, silly!) Piper's just don't have a built in sense of well-being. They are, more often than not, ectomorphs. Critical. Quick to point out mistakes. Intolerable of disagreement. The pain of learning the instrument has left us feeling disgruntled. We're LOOKING for revenge! Just about anything will work.

susnfx · Post by **susnfx** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:47 pm

Dale, has it been this way from the start, or could it be that there are just some "personalities" frequenting this forum right now?

Patrick D'Arcy · Post by **Patrick D'Arcy** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:48 pm

I blame the war.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:24 pm

Patrick D'Arcy wrote:I blame the war.

War on pipering ?

tompipes · Post by **tompipes** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:46 pm

I have to agree with Kevin here.
There are bucket loads of pipers and pipe makers that don't follow this list at all, for several reasons I'm sure. To be honest I didn't know that this list existed until I moved to the US 9 months ago.
Pipers in Ireland do have the advantage of having plenty of pipe makers around them and access to regular classes. No matter where you live in the country there is a pipe maker no more than an hour and a half away. 2 hours max. Irish pipers don't need to go online to get info on reeds when there's a potential new one a few hours away.

That said it would be a great thing if more of the expierienced pipers/makers did offer a thought on the list now and again. It would be a shame to discourage those voices because of louder ones. To quote a very prominet piper,

"I wouldn't bother me bollix signing up to them things, you give some one a bit of advice or help answer a question and some other cheeky f***er comes along with a big fuggin mouth and says your wrong when your trying to help, me bollix"

Tommy

benwalker · Post by **benwalker** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:47 pm

I think some people like our friend just get hacked off with crap service.
Yeah piping is tough and you get pissed off with the things from time to time. There are makers out there who really shouldn't be plying their trade. There are excellent makers who are a pleasure to do buisiness with and who really know their stuff.
Why shouldn't those pipers who have a problem and feel that they can't turn to anyone else for support get their back sides chewed off by some of you on this forum.
Cottage industry or Not if the things don't bloody work what use are they?
If you make crap pipes you should expect the fall out

mconners · Post by **mconners** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:10 pm

I think that Dale has a good question and there have been some good answers.

I will add my perspective... here goes.

Firstly, the instrument itself is not easy to manufacture or to play. That means one can have the combination of good maker/potentially good player, good maker/bad player, bad maker/good player, bad maker/bad player, and gradings in-between.

Secondly, the flute and tinwhistle (to my knowledge) have ever been close to extinction and a break in the methodology/skills involved in making good sets.

Thirdly, we in the 21st century have a heightened sense of consumer awareness. We as consumers think that even the small one-man pipemaker should have the same resources as a large multi-national musical instrument manufacturer. I think some pipers have unrealistic expectations or lack of patience or lack of common sense.

Then add in the usual amounts of human shortcomings.

Put all of this in a bowl, stir it up and put it on the internet. Personally I am surprised that there isn't more trouble than what Dale is seeing.

Dale, if you want to get a feel for what it's like to deal with this particular forum long-term, drop David Daye an email. He's managed/moderated the uilleann email list for years.

benwalker · Post by **benwalker** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:24 pm

Whats lacking isn't common sense but a common understanding of what a player is wanting from a set of pipes and what a maker is giving.
I don't give a fig who the maker is as long as he knows how to make the instrument he is SELLING. If he is just fannying around then don't expect to sell his pipes for money. Give em away and get a proper job

Post by **Dale** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:13 pm

Lorenzo wrote: You're familiar with the expression "short, fat, and happy" (no, not you, silly!)

Right. I'm not that happy.

Dale

Post by **Dale** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:28 pm

Thanks.

I appreciate those of you who provided serious answers, as I am in an uncharacteristically serious mood.

I'm not afraid of the prospect of being sued over this forum. No one is going to sue me over this and, if they did, I'd regard it as fuel for stories I could tell for years. I've long concluded that, perhaps for good reasons, a lot of people in the world of piping love to threaten legal action. Who the hell knows what that's all about?

Here's my problem. I don't particularly WANT to provide a forum for people to complain about pipemakers. I have no way of evaluating the fairness of a critical post because of my near-complete ignorance about the instrument and the makers thereof. An unfair post can do damage to a person's livelihood--a prospect I don't enjoy. Some have said--and I've said myself--the maker can come on the forum and defend himself. But why should a pipemaker be forced to participate in the forum? An unfair criticism can be ignored, which may not be advisable--else the maker is forced to come on here and defend himself. I don't like putting people in that position. There are appropriate forums for working out business disputes. Letters. Telephones. Email. I've just decided I'm not having it here.

I understand that pipemakers can protect themselves by conducting business in a professional way. But that doesn't provide complete protection. And, with these waiting lists and these prices, some people will inevitably get mad and there may not be much about it that is fair.

I've recently had to delete, from this forum, a criticism of a pipemaker that explicitly accused the maker of alcoholism. Any decent person with any sense should know that it beyond inappropriate. What would make a person DREAM that such a post is an ok thing to do? I am horrified that that post stayed up long enough for people to read it. I am technically, legally, and most importantly, morally the publisher of this forum. I felt responsible and furious that some idiot would put me in that position.

Here's my next question--Who believes that the positive value of this forum outweighs the nastiness? Is there enough genuine educational value to warrant its existence? If not, I think it would be a good time to pull the plug and I'm not convinced there'd be much grief at its passing.

Dale

Patrick D'Arcy · Post by **Patrick D'Arcy** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:43 pm

Hi Dale,

I for one feel that there are a great deal of positive uses within this board and would not like to see it dismantled due to a few bad apples. Think of all the sessions people get to play in when they travel out of town, all the questions that get answered, all the beginners that get pointed in the right direction because this forum exists.

When a question about a maker comes in I think it only right that the "PM" function be used and with the express agreement of the person receiving the "PM" that it remains a confidential interaction. No maker should have to deal with the public humiliation that has gone on here from time to time. People need to talk to their pipemakers if an issue arises, it's completely and utterly pointless bringing up issues on the board that belong between two individuals. A day of private thought in heated situations is a must, write the message and save it on your hard drive. Talk to the maker (or whoever) directly, re-read the email you wrote the previous day and then see where it takes you, knowing that if it's inflammatory it will be deleted and you will be banned.

Is there a way of setting up a rule system? A three strikes sort of model? Basically every person on the list could be the monitors. Then I suppose because we are in an over-analytical society there'd have to be rules written up and followed... preferably not. Hopefully people would understand what decent conversation is and if they don't keep within that boundary their posts get deleted and they get banned, after rigorous review and if positively deserved.

Anyone else?

PD.

Post by **Dale** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:47 pm

Patrick

Thanks. I have no problem with someone posting a message that theyhave a so-and-so chanter (or pipey-thing or bag-deal) and they don't like it and here's why.

What I object to is---this chanter is a p.o.s. and the maker is a con man. I also object to people using the forum to report "bad experiences" with makers. They may have legitimate complaints, but there is NO WAY for these to be fairly mediated in this kind of forum. It's not the place.

Thanks again for your constructive suggestion and feedback.

Dale

Patrick D'Arcy · Post by **Patrick D'Arcy** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:50 pm

I updated my last post

Wasn't finished....

I know practice what you preach blah de blah

PD.

djm · Post by **djm** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 3:55 pm

Dale, I missed the thread with accusation of drunkenness. Could you repost it?

Just kidding, of course. I don't know where you could easily draw a line. People want to know which makers are recommended, who to stay away from and why.

Obviously, personal attacks on a maker or player should not be tolerated. That would be mean-spirited, and not the sort of information-sharing that we, as a community, are trying to promote. Would it not suffice to privately warn someone when they've crossed the line, or are we becoming too much of a burden on the moderator? There's lots of lively debate here, and I love the great sense of humour of many of the participants. Is there some method you could offer that we could police ourselves?

djm