Is Liam O'Flynn the greatest living Irish musician?

[feadogin]

I don't even know the terminology of UP pipes, but I personally prefer a more staccato style with all those levers and gizmos making incredible rhythmic/harmonic additions to the pure melody.

Just to correct you, the proper terminology is "thingies and doohickeys."



I like Liam O'Flynn but I vote for Paddy Keenan.

Justine

edited for correct spelling of terminology

[mat]

. OFlynn plays very cleanly, maybe too cleanly,

MMM....Im afraid what I have heard of his more recent stuff bores me to tears, although I do not dispute his technical prowess. Its just too produced........or too 'good'?

Mat

[Dai]

When you say 'produced', are you saying that the sound of the pipes is in
some way changed in the process of recording?

[Pat Cannady]

Like mat I do think some of his later recordings a little too "produced". to me the word means there's too much accompaniment, too much synthesizer, too much orchestration. Liam doesn't hide behind that stuff, you can hear him just fine, but it's distracting and somewhat annoying after a while. My favorite Planxty recordings are those tracks where it's just Liam playing solo for the majority of the arrangement, or with Matt Molloy, Noel Hill, and Tony Linnane and very sparse accompaniment. You should hear some of the private recordings of him that people have collected at tionoil and recitals where he just played unaccompanied by anything other than his drones and regs. That's some impressive musicianship, technically flawless and yet thoughtful and expressive playing, not just a stream of melodic diarrhea.

The whole best musician thing is a silly idea, though. How can you objectively compare two or more individuals who have different styles and more likely than not play different instruments?

[djm]

Pat, you're right on. That is what I meant earlier by the term "muzak". O'Flynn produced two albums previous to The Given Note which were pure piping, the first was simply called Liam O'Flynn, and the second called The Fine Art of Piping, both worth getting a hold of.

I agree that he did some of his finest piping with Planxty. His two albums The Given Note and Out to Another Side seem to have been shanghaied by others with a totally non-ITM bent. They are largely without any sense of rhythm, and are totally washed out in synths and orchestral arrangements. Some tracks have almost no O'Flynn at all on them. That is why I objected. If they aren't muzak, they are the next nearest thing. Perhaps you prefer the term "new age". Its all boring drivel to me.

As far as "greatest musician", how can you pick any single musician out and ignore his teachers? In O'Flynn's case, they were Rowsome, Ennis and Clancy, any one of whom could play rings around O'Flynn. O'Flynn's talent is in choosing good tunes and laying out well-considered piping arrangements for them. This results in a very smooth sound that is his own style.

djm

[Dai]

[The whole best musician thing is a silly idea, though. How can you objectively compare two or more individuals who have different styles and more likely than not play different instruments?[/quote]

So you dislike the idea of competions that occur throughout Ireland
every summer. They are all about comparing the talents of different
players and I am sure they improve the quality of musicanship generally.
Musicians I have played alongside in Ireland are forever comparing
the talents of one player against another. A little competition is healthy.

It is not only technical competence that marks the best in any field of music, interpretation is a huge factor and Leo Rowsome, Seamus Ennis
had to compete with others at fleadh throughout Ireland to become the best.

I am not anti production in the recording process so long as the sound of the featured instrument is not distorted in any way. Whenever a live concert takes place in a venue that requires amplification you are likely
to hear far worse distortion of the pure sound than you would under studio conditions.

It's silly to be too purist about traditional music, it's meant to be enjoyed
it's not Handel's Messiah.

[Dai]

O'Flynn's talent is in choosing good tunes and laying out well-considered piping arrangements for them. This results in a very smooth sound that is his own style.djm[/quote]

My experience of New Age music is very limited, the term conjures up an
image of doped up hippies lying about on sofas relaxing to a kind of
musical wallpaper. Not the image I associate with Liam O Flynn's playing.
While I agree that he has a smooth style, it's not what I would call comatose.

[Bloomfield]

The whole best musician thing is a silly idea, though. How can you objectively compare two or more individuals who have different styles and more likely than not play different instruments?

So you dislike the idea of competions that occur throughout Ireland
every summer. They are all about comparing the talents of different
players and I am sure they improve the quality of musicanship generally.
Musicians I have played alongside in Ireland are forever comparing
the talents of one player against another. A little competition is healthy.

Now if you had said the competitions improve technical skill or virtuosity, I could agree with you. There's an argument to be made I think that the competitions actually lower the quality of musicianship by effectively discouraging individual and local styles and by ranking flashy bits over subtle expression.

It is not only technical competence that marks the best in any field of music, interpretation is a huge factor and Leo Rowsome, Seamus Ennis
had to compete with others at fleadh throughout Ireland to become the best.

I don't think Seamus Ennis competed with others at fleadhs, at least I've never heard about it. But even if he did, I doubt that's what made his music great.

I am not anti production in the recording process so long as the sound of the featured instrument is not distorted in any way. Whenever a live concert takes place in a venue that requires amplification you are likely
to hear far worse distortion of the pure sound than you would under studio conditions.

It's silly to be too purist about traditional music, it's meant to be enjoyed
it's not Handel's Messiah.

Well, the Messiah is meant to be enjoyed, too, I think.

It's not right that after two pages of very mild and open comments to such a silly proposition as "Liam O'Flynn is the greatest living trad musician" you start calling being "too purist" silly. First of all if you think the opinions voiced here are "too purist" you need to get out more. Second of all, if you can't reconcile yourself to the fact that people won't all agree with you, except by calling others silly, then don't start threads such as this one.

[djm]

Don't be silly.

[Pat Cannady]

Dai - relax, man. I just said the idea was silly, not you personally. I do think Liam is great.

I'm not so purist I would never work with a good accompanist. I like playing with a guitarist that knows how to back ITM. There's a few of them around.

I just think lots of synths and orchestral arrangements add nothing to Liam's music. He's so good he doesn't need them, nor does Ronan Browne, Brian MacNamara, Paddy Keenan, or any other piper on my list of favorites. In my opinion of course.

Competition has its uses. But people shouldn't let it get to their heads, it's only one person's opinion most of the time.

[kenr]

Dai,

I don't think Ennis or Rowsome ever competed at fleadhanna. And anyway, winning these competitions doesn't automatically make you a good piper as Bloomfield has already said.

On the wider issue, live gigs from O'Flynn prove him to be a fantastic entertainer and a brilliant piper. His settings of tunes, whether they're derived from Ennis, Rowsome, Clancy or his own choice of tunes new-ish to the pipes, always have his individual stamp on them. I think he has impeccable taste and I have nicked endless tricks from tapes of his playing.

I don't think you should judge the man's playing from CDs that obviously have some nod to commercial expectations. His last CD with Seamus Heaney has some excellent playing, with very little accompaniment.

Ken

[djm]

Kenr, good point. O'Flynn is also an excellent whistle player, and as you point out, when unaccompanied is a great entertainer by himself. Now if we could just do something about that Shaun Davey connection ...

djm

[Cayden]

Dai,

I don't think Ennis or Rowsome ever competed at fleadhanna. And anyway, winning these competitions doesn't automatically make you a good piper as Bloomfield has already said.

Rowsome was a Comhaltas man who, like the rest of them, to an extend measured achievement by counting medals and cups. Pat Mitchell told me how once he was talking to Leo at some concert or tionol while Ennis was playing. Everybody was admiring Ennis' playing and out of the blue [Pat's words] Leo said to Pat : 'why does everybody think he's so great? He never even entered a competition.' Pat still got a chuckle out of that.

I think the whole thing about Flynn is that he stays well within his capabilities, never takes a risk and is always reliable [some would say predictable maybe]. Nevertheless he is undeniably a great piper.

[Jens_Hoppe]

I enjoy Händel's Messiah quite a lot...

[Dai]

Just to check on how much over-production there is on the “ The Given Note ‘’ I played the CD this morning and listened to the accompaniment . I found to my surprise that no fewer than 8 tracks of the 14 on the disc had synthesiser or electrical
backing. To discern what was going on in the background I had to listen attentively or perhaps retentively. I can honestly say that I hadn’t noticed all the hi tech stuff on previous hearings which either speaks volumes for the low intrusion of the backing or of my poor hearing.

I had bought the CD in order to listen to the piping of Liam O Flynn, I don’t feel that I have been short changed in any way, it’s all there on the disc.

I had considered starting a thread with the provisional title ‘Is Johnny Mc Donagh the
greatest bodhran player in Irish music?’’ but on reflection, I think I will go away for a few months and perhaps “get out a bit more’’.