Cathy,
A question for you, in regards to your initial post: Does John Skelton's Olwell or Burns flutes sound characterless when you hear him play them? Not being sarcastic at all here, I'm honestly curious since I recently had the chance to hear John these flutes in person.
Loren
Philosophical Q: Playability vs. Character
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Loren
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Not making any comparisons , of course , but I didn't know what subtle flute playing was till I spent the weekend listening to Jean-Michel Veillon .
It confirmed what Brian Finnegan said the weekend before :- that Jean -Michel is way out in front in the subtlety stakes .I must say that every player I hear sounds just the same , whatever they play !
It confirmed what Brian Finnegan said the weekend before :- that Jean -Michel is way out in front in the subtlety stakes .I must say that every player I hear sounds just the same , whatever they play !
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sturob
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I haven't heard Jean-Michel Veillon live, but to agree with Andrew's other point . . .
That's one of the reasons I find it interesting that people want to get flutes to sound like certain people. Chris Norman sounds like Chris Norman on anything; just like Molloy sounds like Molloy. And, fortunately or unfortunately, I sound like me.
Stuart
That's one of the reasons I find it interesting that people want to get flutes to sound like certain people. Chris Norman sounds like Chris Norman on anything; just like Molloy sounds like Molloy. And, fortunately or unfortunately, I sound like me.
Stuart
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Gordon
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Andrew -- why are you so angry at Americans? We won the war two and a half centuries ago. Get over it! :roll:
Flutes should feel good to play, so that you play well. What this means is entirely personal, and often based on what you're used to or have been playing. If you can't hear yourself, you can play well, but you won't enjoy yourself, so you won't play your best, and it won't matter much to you, anyway.
If you've been playing awhile, it probably means several different types of flutes. I spend most of my playing time on a baroque flute, but then I return to my Hamilton with pleasure, like opening up the windows after the winter is over.
I've played antiques and new flutes, and generally prefer the good antiques over the good new flutes, but much prefer the good new flutes over bad antiques. Since most of us, Andrew, do not have the money or access to good antiques, Rudalls and the like, we end up finding flutes that are made recently, but well, or we suffer with those that are not great flutes.
In the end, a good player will make almost anything sound good. The quirkier the flute, the more we call it "character". Modern flutes, particularly Boehms, but even some of the wooden flutes, McGees et al, also have less flaws, a more open, transparent sound, and therefore seem to have less character. The truth is, most character is put there by the player, or the character flaws are exploited by the (good) players and they sound good, rather than bad.
Hmm.. I seem to have run out of ramble...
Gordon
Flutes should feel good to play, so that you play well. What this means is entirely personal, and often based on what you're used to or have been playing. If you can't hear yourself, you can play well, but you won't enjoy yourself, so you won't play your best, and it won't matter much to you, anyway.
If you've been playing awhile, it probably means several different types of flutes. I spend most of my playing time on a baroque flute, but then I return to my Hamilton with pleasure, like opening up the windows after the winter is over.
I've played antiques and new flutes, and generally prefer the good antiques over the good new flutes, but much prefer the good new flutes over bad antiques. Since most of us, Andrew, do not have the money or access to good antiques, Rudalls and the like, we end up finding flutes that are made recently, but well, or we suffer with those that are not great flutes.
In the end, a good player will make almost anything sound good. The quirkier the flute, the more we call it "character". Modern flutes, particularly Boehms, but even some of the wooden flutes, McGees et al, also have less flaws, a more open, transparent sound, and therefore seem to have less character. The truth is, most character is put there by the player, or the character flaws are exploited by the (good) players and they sound good, rather than bad.
Hmm.. I seem to have run out of ramble...
Gordon
The present war is being pursued by our idiot criminal leader as well as yours , Gordon .My feeling against your ( evil ) administration is of recent generation , with your substantial loss of democracy , and the pretence that you still have something left to offer the rest of the world , with your New American Century , your Crusade against Islam , and your Dominionism.
I must say that the Americans I deal with are a nice and well educated and civilised lot .Not like the soldiers I see interviewed who are so keen to go out and maim and murder .Same for their bosses .
Read Counterpunch free on the internet .
I am afraid it is sheer drivel to talk as you do about the cost of decent antiques .I have bought plenty of good 8 silver key flutes since I began comparatively recently for far lower prices than you lot are squandering on second rate keyless flutes .
I must say that the Americans I deal with are a nice and well educated and civilised lot .Not like the soldiers I see interviewed who are so keen to go out and maim and murder .Same for their bosses .
Read Counterpunch free on the internet .
I am afraid it is sheer drivel to talk as you do about the cost of decent antiques .I have bought plenty of good 8 silver key flutes since I began comparatively recently for far lower prices than you lot are squandering on second rate keyless flutes .
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Nanohedron
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chas
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The keyed antique flute that I'm in love with cost a little more than $300 between purchase price and having it brought into tune with itself.
(just a data point, not an opinion one way or another)
(just a data point, not an opinion one way or another)
Charlie
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glauber
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Jeanie, i can't speak from experience, since i don't collect flutes, but basically the German "nach Meyer" (Meyer model? i think) flutes are plentiful and often not very expensive, or sometimes you see a nice French or American flute. It's the loud English flutes that are overpriced, because of their association with Irish music. Usually when one of those shows up, someone mentions it here or in Woodenflute, and the price shoots up to heaven.
What scares me off buying flutes on eBay is having to buy without being able to touch and play the flute. It's always a gamble, so basically you have to be willing to gamble $200-$300 and sometimes you get a decent flute. I guess i'm not a gambler. I've been to Vegas once, thought it was interesting, but i couldn't convince myself even to plonk $0.25 in one of the slot machines. Comes from having a Presbyterian upbringing, i guess!
Gordon, it's like jazz: if you have to ask it, then you'll never know.
g
What scares me off buying flutes on eBay is having to buy without being able to touch and play the flute. It's always a gamble, so basically you have to be willing to gamble $200-$300 and sometimes you get a decent flute. I guess i'm not a gambler. I've been to Vegas once, thought it was interesting, but i couldn't convince myself even to plonk $0.25 in one of the slot machines. Comes from having a Presbyterian upbringing, i guess!
Gordon, it's like jazz: if you have to ask it, then you'll never know.
g
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog!
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peeplj
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Andrew, remember when you are looking at the United States government, you are not seeing the people, the individuals that make up our country. It would be a mistake to characterize or judge the average American using elected officials as your pattern.
For what it's worth, I am not a fan of the current administration, either. America is deeply polarized now, over many issues (some real, like the war, some less real, like gay marriage--there are always things like that which are thrown out more or less as decoys during times of real trouble here), and for every American that supports the war, chances are there are (at least) one who opposes it just as strongly.
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On flutes, I think the subjective differences in how different flutes handle and play, which are extremely obvious and immediate to the player, don't carry over into the music nearly so much as we think.
We do tend to sound like ourselves, no matter what we are playing on.
That said, though, it is also true that a Baroque flute is never going to sound like a Hamilton, and the reverse is true as well, so it's not all the player, either.
--James
For what it's worth, I am not a fan of the current administration, either. America is deeply polarized now, over many issues (some real, like the war, some less real, like gay marriage--there are always things like that which are thrown out more or less as decoys during times of real trouble here), and for every American that supports the war, chances are there are (at least) one who opposes it just as strongly.
---
On flutes, I think the subjective differences in how different flutes handle and play, which are extremely obvious and immediate to the player, don't carry over into the music nearly so much as we think.
We do tend to sound like ourselves, no matter what we are playing on.
That said, though, it is also true that a Baroque flute is never going to sound like a Hamilton, and the reverse is true as well, so it's not all the player, either.
--James
I certainly did not say that all modern flutes are second rate , Nanohedron , as you will see if you read what I put .I was talking about the price of relatively good keyed old flutes compared with the price of second rank keyless .Mr Olwell is buying old flutes and selling new ones .He aint daft !. ( just rereading that it sounds as if I think Mr. Olwells flutes are second rate .Of course I don't.If they are good enough for Mr Molloy they're good enough for me !).
I still think that the best new flutes have left out of sight really the old production .Go and hear M.Veillon ! Unfortunately of course not everybody can get one .
I still think that the best new flutes have left out of sight really the old production .Go and hear M.Veillon ! Unfortunately of course not everybody can get one .
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Steampacket
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I think Andrew, Gordon & Peepji all have valid points as regards flutes. So many factors are involved, most important surely being the flute player. A virtuoso such as Matt Molloy plays an Olwell and does a fine job. Easky, Sligo virtuoso Pat Mahan plays some no name stick like you've never heard, simply staggering awesome music.
Experienced Irish trad flute players can probably make any flute sound good and yet still have a preference for a favourite flute they know well, that responds, and does what they expect it to.
Good to know there are folks like yourself, Peepji, across the pond. All the best
Experienced Irish trad flute players can probably make any flute sound good and yet still have a preference for a favourite flute they know well, that responds, and does what they expect it to.
Good to know there are folks like yourself, Peepji, across the pond. All the best
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Jayhawk
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Jeanie - I've always been quite nervous about the eBay things, and I don't think I'd purchase off of eBay unless I at least "knew" (as in C&F board knew) the seller.
Do check with some of the flute makers - some restore and sell instruments as well, but Ralph Sweet does come to mind right off. I got my old german flute from Dave Migoya...if you want to do some restoration work on your own (I repadded and cleaned up the silver on mine) he might have something floating around or he might well have something he has finished.
I DO think buying old flutes at good prices in person is much more common for our European brethern than people like me...stuck on the Missouri/Kansas border. There are lots of old flutes here - provided you like old Boehm flutes.
Eric
Do check with some of the flute makers - some restore and sell instruments as well, but Ralph Sweet does come to mind right off. I got my old german flute from Dave Migoya...if you want to do some restoration work on your own (I repadded and cleaned up the silver on mine) he might have something floating around or he might well have something he has finished.
I DO think buying old flutes at good prices in person is much more common for our European brethern than people like me...stuck on the Missouri/Kansas border. There are lots of old flutes here - provided you like old Boehm flutes.
Eric
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mat
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Obviously recognising a good flute is only really done by playing it (not always possible ie: ebay). But following some simple guides may help. i.e.
1. A makers stamped flute is likely to be of better quality than an unstamped intrument. The maker will be disinclined to put thier name to a 'donkey'.
2. Some makers are better than others. General consensus is that 8key flutes made in London in the 19th Century are most suited to Irish music. I wont go into detail regarding individual makers....just do a search on the board.
3. Materials/design can be a good indicator. Nickel silver keys tend to suggest a lower quality flute than one with real silver. a lack of tuning slide also suggests a 'budget' model. In general those with block mounted keys are in a better league than those with pin mounted keys.
4. Big holes loud but 'greedy', small holes Sweet and easy to play.
5. remember that none of these guides are written in stone. There are plenty of flutes that on paper would appear poor but play beautifully and visa versa.
Try to get Hamiltons 'Irish Flute Players Handbook'. He is much more thorough than I.
I must say that I would always go with an old flute. But that's just me.
Mat
1. A makers stamped flute is likely to be of better quality than an unstamped intrument. The maker will be disinclined to put thier name to a 'donkey'.
2. Some makers are better than others. General consensus is that 8key flutes made in London in the 19th Century are most suited to Irish music. I wont go into detail regarding individual makers....just do a search on the board.
3. Materials/design can be a good indicator. Nickel silver keys tend to suggest a lower quality flute than one with real silver. a lack of tuning slide also suggests a 'budget' model. In general those with block mounted keys are in a better league than those with pin mounted keys.
4. Big holes loud but 'greedy', small holes Sweet and easy to play.
5. remember that none of these guides are written in stone. There are plenty of flutes that on paper would appear poor but play beautifully and visa versa.
Try to get Hamiltons 'Irish Flute Players Handbook'. He is much more thorough than I.
I must say that I would always go with an old flute. But that's just me.
Mat