Becoming Irish or becoming Irish music?

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:38 am

Yup, The Butterfly is without exception started by one of newbies of the session, and all the other newbies join in on it, while the rest of the gang puts down their instruments and go to get a beer and use the toilet.

Kevin Burke's playing of it is brilliant - but even though he plays it brilliantly it not a tune I'm fond of.

Chris

Post by **Nanohedron** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:44 am

I myself was thinking of Burke as I posted.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:22 pm

"In essence, they have not become Irish; rather they have become Irish music. "

International Irtrad only took off when the public were wore out with Jazz Rock etc when there was already in Britain a vibrant revival irtrad subculture recorded and given lots of airplay; if Uzbek yodeling had been better organised, today we would all be drinking Yak beer, riding Camels and yodeling.

In addition the theory that Irish music was always only well played by Irish people, is not true! Nor is it true that the Irish did not play tunes such as The Ash Grove!

Also if you care to read O'Niell and a few more on this topic you'll soon see that many a travelling player came and stayed in Ireland, as again they do today, none of these folks were/are Irish. Gee as if that has anything to do with good music!

The only thing I found accurate is the point that some regions have a 'blas' or flavor that is unique, and that two players familiar with it would not easily accomodate an outsider who tried to sit in - here OC I am talking about the older now rare kitchen sessions. It is here that I part company with some of the more skilled sessioneers here, sure they are better at it, but I simply don't get what they are better at. Likewise to them I sound like a scalded cat, but to one of my former neighbors I sound right!

Playing Irtrad at a US session is like busking with a conch in London. You have to be very very skilled to put it across. So where bluegrass sounds so much better irtrad can sound a little like bellidance snake charm bongo music. But OC bluegrass does not sound so good in Britain so there they prefer hometrad. I guess its due to the different air.

Comical but true, I was encouraged to play trad on the tinwhistle by an English guy who never set foot in Ireland. Like athletics in Ireland credit is given to musical ability FIRST after that locality might run a close second to a good pint.

E = Fb · Post by **E = Fb** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:09 pm

It reminds me of the way Darwin and others write on the subject of evolution. It sounds good.

spittin_in_the_wind · Post by **spittin_in_the_wind** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 4:21 pm

MarkB wrote: Often, this new state of being in the world produces a reactionary response. One such response can be found in the world of Irish traditional music sessions....

The session rhetoric in the Midwestern U.S. is that sessions are to be recreational, yet they more often resemble performances in which semi-professional and professional musicians are the only participants allowed. On the other hand, anyone can join in the rural, non-tourist sessions in Ireland, provided they can at least minimally play or sing.

An unintentional outcome of this structuring is that it creates a semi-professional class of musicians. In turn, it also alters the traditional nature of the session. This is because the creation of a semi-professional class transforms the session from a purely aesthetic activity into an activity that requires the construction and maintenance of boundaries...

These notions are reinforced by the comments that claim only those with some degree of Irish ancestry have Irish music in their ancestral bones. This is a curious notion, since it appears that one does not have to be born in Vienna, for example, to play a Viennese waltz. ....

The more traditional session is filled with Irish-born and first and second-generation Irish descendants. A native Irishman owns the pub in which it takes place and there are many Irish national symbols adorning the walls. No one in this session makes a point of either mentioning it is an Irish session nor do they ask a person's surname. Furthermore, they are less likely to exclude musicians who do not have ancestral links to Ireland.....

While they are not being Irish, they nevertheless promote a version of "Irishness" through the music they play, and their identification with it, which is not entirely an authentic representation of Irish culture. The "tradition" they disseminate is more the idea of tradition, rather than the actual tradition itself.

The sessions under investigation in this study indicate that these are created communities based on created ethnic identifications, at least the sessions located in the more provincial American towns. Ironically, despite this practice, Irish music has found its way into virtually every corner of the globe from Israel to Taiwan and does not seem to be in any danger of disappearing in the near future.

Fascinating....it sounds like the strictest, most "traditional" American sessions are truly the least traditional, in actual fact.

fluter_d · Post by **fluter_d** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:27 pm

Much food for thought - thanks, MarkB.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:50 pm

fluter_d wrote:Much food for thought - thanks, MarkB.

No kidding. I am still trying to figure out what it actually means.

By and large, the musicians in this study become the vital proponents of the tradition.

FJohnSharp · Post by **FJohnSharp** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:09 am

I'm not too proud to admit I had to look up 'pastiche. ' It sounded like something you'd put on a cracker.

BrassBlower · Post by **BrassBlower** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:18 am

FJohnSharp wrote:I'm not too proud to admit I had to look up 'pastiche. ' It sounded like something you'd put on a cracker.

Shouldn't that be spelled páistis?

Zubivka · Post by **Zubivka** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:12 am

BrassBlower wrote:Shouldn't that be spelled páistis?

Though, with computers, the spelling "paste-ish" got some deserved popularity,
here's the Pure drop:

Any other pastiche would be a mock and cheap imitation...

The Weekenders · Post by **The Weekenders** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:15 am

"Butterfly appeals to Americans more" bit is crap. I have many Irish records and it surprises me how many of the native-born artists include it on their records. It's everywhere. It's a good tune, period, and a touchstone in tunesets.

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:55 am

Weekenders,
Regardless of what I think of the tune, I'm wondering if you could point me to some recordings of it besides those by the Bothy Band and Kevin Burke... I can't think of any others off the top of my head.
Chris

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:06 am

There's Tommy Potts, who composed one of the parts and stuck it onto one of his father's tunes but him aside, i was just about thinking the same Chris.

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:13 am

There's a nice version of the Butterfly on the soundtrack, The Secret of Roan Inish.
Tony

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:17 am

Well, I did a search, and here are the recordings I found. I find it a curious list....

* 1975 The First by The Bothy Band
* 25 Years Of Celtic Music (Disc 2) by Various Artists
* Afterhours by The Bothy Band
* An Fhidil, Sraith 2 by Sean Keane, Kevin Burke, Paddy Glackin And Seamus Creagh
* At The Source by Celtic Spring
* California Celt by Jesse Autumn And Friends
* Carolan's Dream by Patrick Ball
* Contradiction by Fromseier Rose (with Niamh Parsons)
* Hit The Bricks... by Waking Maggie
* In Ireland by James Galway And The Chieftains
* Kevin Burke In Concert by Kevin Burke
* Live In by Baker's Well
* Raining UP by Mairead Nesbitt
* Spirit Of The Isles: A Concert For Beltane by Various Artists
* Take To The Floor by Haste To The Wedding
* The Liffey Banks by Tommy Potts
* Trian II by Trian
* Where Else Would You Be by The Pub Scouts
* WhirlyGig by WhirlyGig

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Becoming Irish or becoming Irish music?

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