The Truth about Tonguing

[feadog39]

good discussion. regarding glottal stops. i did forget to factor them into my brialliant ravings. i play flute too, and use glottal stops quite alot usually in conjuction with the 'dah' tonguing. But not on the whistle. Well, i think glottal stops are great on the whistle when you're ending a note or phase. they sort of give the end of a note a little lift. but glottal starts i find awkaward and unclear. but perhaps that's just because i don't know how to do it properly.

yeah, the tonguing issue with the whistle is a bit overdone. i'll admit. but i think a little bit of insight into it goes a long way. the wrong kind of tonguing, the kind that execesively stops the airlflow, can stop a tune in its tracks.

i actually got this insight about tonguing not from ITM really, but from talking with this guy who plays french horn for the chicago symphony orchestra. his impression was that--even for the new players arriving at the professional level--there is no comprehension or ability to exectute the 'dah' kind of tonguing, a problem he blames squarely on the influeces of high school band on musicians where the 'tah' 'tah' 'tah' thing rages outa control. Somewhere along the line, predating my whistle playing, i learned the 'dah' kind of tonguing and it has carried over. So this insight may be more helpful to those who aren't "pure breeds" which is to say whistle players who have prior musical training, background, or influences that are other than ITM. or maybe not.

in any case, i hope this is helpful for some. my perspective certainly is a take-it or leave-it kind of thing. try it out for yourself and see how or if it works.

yup, it was a major imbroglio called "the worste trade in history" back on June 15, 1964 when Lou Brock got traded for Ernie Broglio. Cubs fans here are still upset about it. I know i am.

[BillG]

The other day I was doing some reading in "A Dossan Of Hether", some quotes from whistler Packie Manus Byrne of Donegal, where he was talking about no longer having great finger movement do to age. He introduced the "didle de - diddle de" tongue tip effect for(one didle de would do here) some tripelets and other similar effects. I had been doing that on the fife some years ago to accentuate tripelets and some other 16th notes along the way.

Great thread - just thought I'd add a comment.

BillG

[Jerry Freeman]

The last episode of Ceili House on RTE Radio 1 featured the singer/lilter Seamus Fay.

I've never taken to lilting, but listening to him, a big light went on in my head. You could hear a relationship between lilting and whistle (or fiddle, pipes, etc.) ornamentation very clearly. It seems to me, learning to lilt any tune you might play would be a terrific way to get the music into your head.

For example, you could hear rolls (or triplets, I suppose, but I heard rolls) wherever he lilted "diddle de" in the tune.

I remember attending a lecture/concert by some noted Indian traditional musicians where the tabla player demonstrated how every note/stroke of the tabla has a vocal counterpart and can be sung. He would sing (lilt) something and then play the exact same thing on the tablas. It was very interesting and impressive.

If anyone would like to hear that Ceili House broadcast, I've saved a file that links to the archive of it and can email it. Let me know.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[Redwolf]

I'm confused when people try to distinguish between "tah" and "dah" because there's absolutely no difference with the tongue's action between the two syllables. In speech, "tah" is voiceless, while "dah" is voiced, but when you're playing the whistle, both are voiceless, but with the same tongue action (i.e., the tongue stopping the air right against the top of the teeth).

Redwolf

[NicoMoreno]

it's a matter of position

[Redwolf]

it's a matter of position

It isn't, really, because "tuh" and "duh" require the exact same tongue position...the only diffference between the syllables is the voicing, which doesn't matter in this context. Try saying "tuh" several times in a row. Then switch to "duh". The tongue position is no different.

Redwolf

[Jerry Freeman]

Although there may be no difference between "tuh" and "duh" when spoken, it is possible to develop a softer, more legato way of tonguing, and the easiest way to talk about it is to say it's something like the difference between "duh" and "tuh." Maybe that comparison isn't technically correct, though.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[BoneQuint]

The "softer" tonguing I use most often could be described as more of a "luh." The tongue doesn't stop the air flow, just quickly partially blocks it. The tip of the tongue just kind of flicks at the roof of the mouth. There's a huge range of tonguing techniques, and all the shades in between, not just a few syllables as some basic tutorials might imply. (I'm another ex-french horn player, by the way).

Perhaps this thread could be summarized as: "maybe so many people are concerned about tonguing because they hear people who tongue in an awkard, exaggerated manner."

[DCrom]

It isn't, really, because "tuh" and "duh" require the exact same tongue position...the only diffference between the syllables is the voicing, which doesn't matter in this context. Try saying "tuh" several times in a row. Then switch to "duh". The tongue position is no different.

Redwolf

Hmm. Audry, I *do* use a different tongue position when I say "tuh" and "duh". Although in both cases the tongue is touching the roof of my mouth at the base of my front teeth, with "tuh" it's the tip of my tongue; with "duh" it's the broader part of my tongue with the tip tucked down out of the way.

And for me, the differences between "tuh" and "duh" tonguing are pretty much as described.

[feadog39]

Perhaps this thread could be summarized as: "maybe so many people are concerned about tonguing because they hear people who tongue in an awkard, exaggerated manner."

yes, good encapsulation. you french horn players is very insightful...

[Monster]

Redwolf wrote

I'm confused when people try to distinguish between "tah" and "dah" because there's absolutely no difference with the tongue's action between the two syllables.

I agree that while in regular day to day speaking there may not be much difference, I believe there is still some difference . The difference being that "tah" is pronounced with the tip of the tongue somewhere near the back of the front teeth where teeth and gums meet.
The "dah" position is somewhat higher and back a bit, on the upper pallete. To get a softer "dah" for whistle playing (pretty much the same for brass instruments too) bring the tongue back even further and release the air from there.

To get the feel for it just pick an easy note to play, say a lower g, then just play and sort of interrupt it with the "dah" syllable. With a little practice you should be able to get the note to sound continuosly, even though you are "tongueing" it. I use "dah" sometimes where it would be nice to slur it, but the interval is just too wide and the attempted slur comes out with a "sqwak" in the middle; sometimes the soft tongue or "dah" can be used instead of a slur, just sounds smoother.

[kkrell]

it's a matter of position

It isn't, really, because "tuh" and "duh" require the exact same tongue position...the only diffference between the syllables is the voicing, which doesn't matter in this context. Try saying "tuh" several times in a row. Then switch to "duh". The tongue position is no different.

Redwolf

Nope, this one doesn't work for me, either. Tongue *tip* position seems to be the same, but there is a difference for me further back. Feel around under your chin with your fingers, back by the neck, as you articulate "tuh" & "duh". For me, "duh" has more activity there, and there's a bit more force given to the airstream. Oh hell, I agree with Peter Laban. This whole thread is a waste of time.

I keep seeing conclusions being made based on assumptions I can't come to agreement with. It's sort of going like this:

If A then B
We have A
So we must have B

Unfortunately, WE DON'T HAVE A. So, you're not getting me to B.

Try "tuh-tuh-tuh-tuh", then "duh-duh-duh-duh" as you say. First off, they are different for me. Regardless of whether your particular initial and return positions do end up the same, if the entire motion of the articulation was the same, then "tuh-duh-tuh-duh" wouldn't be so damned strange, and should be absolutely comfortable. You can exagerrate it by doing even more repetitions.

As they say in the Boehm world: "Tickle two kitty cats"

Kevin Krell

[Monster]

well, diffferences of opinion always pop up on this subject, probably good IMO.

[Azathoth]

Just my 2 euro cents (living here in Hamburg at the mo' as I am):

1. If this thread has done nothing more than make people think more about what tongueing actually is, then it's a very good one (and all like it). The only issue I'd have with the original post is that there are waaaaaaaaay more ways of tongueing than just tah and duh (or luh, duh, tuh, dah, do deee etc.). I think one of the most important things when learning ANY wind instrument is the fantastical variety of things the tongue can do if called upon, and it is certainly not a good idea to get "up-tight" about which tongueing is correct, until one has a feel for the kind of music one is playing. Which brings me on to my second point.

2. It having been pointed out to me by a band member that I was getting a bit staccato on the old whistle in a couple of tunes, I changed my style a bit (I guess I went for the more luh/duh/tuh school of thought) and found that the piece -- with that kind of tongueing -- simply became much much easier. Doesn't hold for one style of tongueing though, I guess, since I've found in the classical world that some things simply can't be played unless one is double- or triple-tongueing the stuff, but it's worth thinking about changing the tongueng if a piece is seeming strangely harder than it should...

Variety is the spice of life, after all.

Greetings,


Az

[srt19170]

I had a similar insight to Feadog39's not so long ago.

I'd always heard various advice about tonguing with the tinwhistle: Don't tongue every note, don't tongue at all, etc. I felt I tongued a lot, and worked to learn new tunes with little or no interruption of the airflow, using cuts and ornaments where needed to distinguish repeated notes.

Then I listened closely to good players and thought, "These guys are tonguing all the time."

The insight, of course, was that there's tonguing and then there's tonguing. The sort of hard, abrupt tonguing that causes clear stacatto stops in the music is unadvised in the hands of an amateur. But using your tongue, breath, etc., to shape the music is not only natural but appropriate.

So now I try not to worry about it so much. I avoid hard tonguing (except at times for repeated notes) and otherwise feel free to experiment. I think tonguing in service of rhythm and articulation is a good thing.

-- Scott