Not quite OT : US education

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OnTheMoor
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Post by OnTheMoor »

burnsbyrne wrote:I grew up in the 60s in a blue collar urban neighborhood. Went to Catholic school. Our parish was named after an Irish saint (St Mel), we always had priests with Irish surnames and the vast majority of parrishioners were of Irish descent. After 8th grade the kids separated depending on whether their parents could pay for Catholic high school or not. It was always my understanding that vocational education was for those who for some reason could not do college prep classes or who had, or were about to acquire, a police record. I went the Catholic high school route and when I graduated I did not know the difference between a hammer and an anvil. Somewhere along the line I gradually learned enough to install floors, replace toilets, repair plaster, do basic electrical wiring refinish furniture and weave cane seats. Besides, paying someone else to do all of that was out of the question.

Cleveland was once one of the capitals of precision tool and diemaking in the US. It seemed there was a tool and die shop on every other block. They are mostly gone now, perhaps because the public schools cannot afford to train future machinist apprentices.

Mike
I think you've got it right here, blame Catholicism. I would bunch Canadians (I think I might stick with just Eastern Canada) in with alot of other European countries in that there isn't a focus on practical enterprise. Why? Well British established Catholic schools to make sure the French were willing to shoot at Yanks when they hopped across the border. Irish immigrants enrolled their kids in the schools and, in Ontario and Quebec at least, we have healthy (for now) Catholic Education Systems. So might religious schools have something to do with it? About 50% of Canada is Catholic, compared to 50% Protestant in the United States. Compare to European countries, what about Catholic Ireland vs. Protestant Germany? Hm? This all leads me to believe that we Catholics are blissfully lazy.

Besides which, why do the work like suckers when you can just get the Americans tod o it for you?
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Jeferson
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Post by Jeferson »

The systems sure aren't all the same. Locally, we have a school district that is an innovator. They started up a tech school that has been an outrageous success, starting ten years back with 90 kids and now up to 400. Here's a highlight...
•Programs: Adventure Tourism Training, Applied Business Technology, Automotive Program, Carpentry Program, Computer Information Systems, Drafting, Electrical, Electronics, Health and Human Services, Welding/Fitter
•Three years of education in two! The students finish gr. 11, 12, and first year college in the two years, and then are admitted straight into the second year of the college program.
•supervised work experience in related career area
•real employment opportunities
•programs focus upon exploring a selected career path
•a graduation ceremony at which they will receive both a secondary school diploma and a College Certificate.

The program is a raging success, and they've gone out and landed corporate partnerships that make a lot of sense, leading to great guests, practicum placements, funding support, etc.

So, there are some good things being done out there. Perfect, no. Everywhere, no. And I'll finish by asking, if you're so dissatisfied with what's being offered, what are you doing to improve the situation?

Jef
Oh, the link is here if you're curious... http://www.careertechcentre.com
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Jeferson
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Post by Jeferson »

OnTheMoor wrote:Besides which, why do the work like suckers when you can just get the Americans tod o it for you?
Geez, what kind of work did you have in mind?

Jef
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Brigitte
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Post by Brigitte »

[quote"] Compare to European countries, what about Catholic Ireland vs. Protestant Germany?[/quote]

:D The comparison does not work, as there is no such thing than "protestant" Germany, there is slightly more Catholics and also Orthodox which are more like the Catholic Church I believe than like the Protestant....

2002 Citizens in total 82 537 000
amongst them
Christians 54 237 000
Percentage of Christians to total citizens 65,7 %
Protestant Church 26 211 000
amonst them
Westliche Gliedkirchen 22 586 000
Östliche Gliedkirchen 3 625 000

Römisch-katholische Kirche 26 466 000

Orthodoxe Kirchen 1 200 000

Other Christian Churches 360 000

Quite alot Christians in Germany, nearly 2/3, I had not expected that I must admit myself.

When I think of Germany and why it may be less adventurous with setting up enterprises I believe it has to do with the handworker guildes and the laws around the professions belonging to this organisations. Only being allowed to set up an enterprise if you have gone through the long path or apprenticeship, working in the job and master education or university degrees for other professions it can surpress gifted handworkers who did not do all the trainings requested. It was much easier in the past in other countries to set up your own business than it has been here. The law got thrown and changed beginning of this year. We have to wait and see if something in the mentality over here changes and people take "their luck in their own hands"

Brigitte
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OnTheMoor
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Post by OnTheMoor »

Huh, how about that. Thanks Brigitte, I'd always thought that Germany was a largely protestant country.

Jeferson> Just kidding around, its something I hear from alot of the hard right in Canada and the US.
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Dictyranger
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Post by Dictyranger »

Chuck_Clark wrote: To speak, however, to the question of whence comes the tweaking/tinkering/do-it-yourself mentality, I think that there are two factors. First, many Americans still think of themselves as coming from self-reliant pioneer stock who just naturally turned their hand to whatever needed doing because there was no one to do it for them. Second, I think the American social climate not only accepts, but even encourages, the personality of the tinkerer/inventor/craftsman. This is NOT an educational thing - the ivory tower types often look down their noses at the hands-on mentality. This is something that falls outside of the formal educational structure.
I think Chuck is dead on here. I think there's a decided DIY streak in the culture. Whether this is because we never had a strong guild structure like European countries did, or whether it's a form of reverse snobbery, I don't know.

But it's got to mean something when almost all decent-size strip malls are anchored by a gigantic home-improvement store. Sure, they sell light bulbs and potted plants, but a lot of that floor space is taken up by dimensional lumber, pre-hung doors and copper flashing. Wouldn't be there if it didn't sell, and that means there's a lot of amateur rough carpentry and construction going on.

It doesn't decrease with education, either. I'm an academic, and all my friends at work are heavy-duty tinkerers. We're scientists, so that may come with the territory--I got quite good at rebuilding precision pumps because I desperately needed them to complete my dissertation. But we all do a lot of trades-oriented stuff outside of work, too.

Dicty
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Post by chas »

missy wrote:one of the women chiming in here.......

But I grew up with a father who made no distinction that I was a girl.
Good for you. I have the good fortune to have married a woman with a better toolbox than I had.
burnsbyrne wrote:. . . I went the Catholic high school route and when I graduated I did not know the difference between a hammer and an anvil.
This reminds me of something that happened 10 years ago or so. We had a graduate student who was looking around for an adviser working with us for a few weeks. We had some holes to drill, and my colleague got the drill out. He turned to this girl and asked, "Have you ever used one of these?" I was about to swat him for stereotyping, but the student said she hadn't, and he had to show her how to use it. I later congratulated him for being so perceptive, but it really never had occurred to me that someone could get to be 23 years old without knowing how to use a hand drill.

It also reminds me of when my wife told her father that she was marrying a physicist. He said "PhD? Won't be much help around the house."
Charlie
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Post by jim stone »

Yes, Americans believe in the dignity of manual labor,
and we don't like servants, if we can avoid them.
This is exactly the opposite of how capitalism is
supposed to be.

Once I was staying in the faculty guest house
at a university in Rajisthan. Some of the Indian Marxist
scholars were going on about how Americans have
everything done for them by machines and
hate manual labor.

I pointed to the fellow mowing the grass, the waiter,
and a man pushing a cart by in the street and said
that I, a professor, had worked at all of these
occupations. The Marxists looked at me with
disgust verging on nausea: I, a professor, had
got my hands dirty!
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Post by Darwin »

My father certainly had nothing to do with my eventual tool addiction. He wasn't much interested in making or fixing things. He liked reading, dancing, playing cards, and listening to the radio (and watching TV, once we finally got one). His big hobbies were hunting and fishing. He was a spiffy dresser, too. As a Chief Clerk, he wore a coat and tie to work. He never even owned a pair of jeans. His rough trousers for the great outdoors were khakis.

My mother was a talented and inventive seamstress, and she was also talented at oil painting, but wasn't into any other crafts. My older brother never showed the slightest sign of wanting to handle a saw or drill. I rather doubt that he ever even owned a pocket knife. My older sister did eventually end up owning a craft store for a while, during which time she got into decoupage and gold leafing, but I never saw any sign of interest in such things before she got married.

In my case, my love of building things must have been at least partly due to the kids I hung out with. I grew up in a series of small towns and oil camps in the 40s and 50s, and we often made our own toys. Old roller skates were disassembled and attached to boards to make scooters. Wooden cigar box tops became rubber-band-powered paddlewheel boats. Weapons were a big thing--Bowie knives carved from apple crate; submachine guns sawed out of pine boards; blowguns made by using a straightened coat hanger, heated over the kitchen stove, to burn through the sections of a length of bamboo, with darts made from the spines of date palm leaves; double-pronged spears from bamboo fishing poles; and bows and arrows from a variety of materials.

All that has stayed with me. While in my mid-50s, I startled our office manager by making a blowgun from a couple of FAX paper rollers, with darts made from paper clips and mailing labels, and shooting at targets all the way across our rather large office. As an "adult" I've made a variety of daggers from files and saw blades, a crossbow from an automobile leaf spring that I picked up during police call at Ft. Bragg, and a naginata (Japanese halberd) from an oak staff and a machete blade. I failed at making a gun to shoot needles using CO2 cartridges. I did make a .22 zip gun when I was in high school, but never had enough confidence in the barrel to actually shoot it. I also made my own gunpowder, leading to a variety of small bombs.

My earliest musical instrument was a cow-horn bugle that I made at about the age of 12 or 13. I was out hunting (meaning shooting anything that moved--except for cows, which were strictly off limits) and ran across a long-dead cow. It's horns slid right off when I pulled at them, so I took them home, carved a mouthpiece on one, drilled through into the cavity, and used broken glass to scrape it smooth.

I've built a couple of Appalachian dulcimers--one from a kit and one from scratch, and I made a banjolin by sawing the neck off of an old mandolin and attaching it to the shell of a cheap banjo with a severly warped neck. What I reall want to do is to make a guitar-banjo by attaching an electric guitar neck that I have lying around to a snare drum. A friend did that, and it was quite impressive. I also did a lot of mother-of-pearl inlay work on my $22.22 Suzuki fiddle. (My second dulcimer taught me the wisdom of keeping one's fingers away from table saw blades, as it's impossible to get bloodstains out of porous woods--and they can make your finger shorter and interfere with guitar playing.)

I no longer have a workshop, but I still have tons of tools--somewhere in boxes in the garage. When I lived in Japan, I went crazy for all those unique Japanese woodworking tools.

I did take shop in the 9th grade. We did several wood projects, a tooled leather billfold, bookbinding, and tin-can craft. I won a pocket knife for a butterfly kite that I made in that class. However, I'd already been building my own toys since at least the third grade. The same school also had auto shop, but I didn't have a car, so I didn't take it.

The Texas Boy Scout troops that I was in from the 6th through the 11th grade were all big on crafts. We did leather work (belts and moccasins), and learned to make rope from packing twine and arrowheads from flint. We plaited lanyards and made plaster-of-paris castings. On my own, I tanned snake skins and failed at tanning a raccoon skin (using tannic acid from my chemistry set), so that my coonskin cap eventually became too smelly to wear. I used my plaiting skills to make bullwhips--inspired by seeing Lash Larue live--and got good enough to pop cigarettes out of the mouths of my friends.

As for enterprise, that wasn't always addressed in the formal curriculum, but when I was a senior in high school. I took part in Junior Achievement. We made a business plan, came up with a product, manufactured it, and marketed it. That experience pretty much convinced me that I never wanted to own my own business. :lol:

Back in those days, quite a few of the boys belonged to the Future Farmers of America. Girls were relegated to the Future Homemakers of America.

I'm sure I'd be trying my hand at building whistles if I still had a place to work...so I'm glad that I don't. There already isn't enough time in the day for all the stuff I'm doing now (including writing such long posts here).
Mike Wright

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jim stone
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Post by jim stone »

Great story, Mike. I took shop in junior high and made
a lamp. The next event was when I became a jeweler.
To my amazement I wasn't bad at making and
designing the stuff, but it was plainly business
that mattered and I didn't care about buying
cheap and selling dear. Later I worked
as a laborer in various capacities, including
forestry, often with Chicanos who were clones
of Cheech; they would say to me, 'I'm tripping, guy.
Can you tell?'
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Post by spittin_in_the_wind »

I haven't read all the replies to this thread, so maybe I'll be repeating something someone else has said, but...

Yes, shop classes are offered in many middle and high schools, but nothing that will make you professionally competent, unless you are attending a vocational high school. However, a lot of adults do "handiwork" recreationally, and can take night/weekend classes in their area of interest, including woodworking, metalworking, glassblowing, knitting, gardening, bread baking, etc. Many times this takes place at a community college or some other similar place.

Robin
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Post by Monster »

My shop teacher kept a whiskey bottle in his desk.
insert uber smart comment here
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Post by Numex »

If you want to read some damning critique of the American public school system, read the author John Taylor Gatto. He makes a pretty good case that public schooling, stateside, is an effort in molding passivity.
I do think that family tradition has a *great* deal to do with the do-it-yourself tinkering tradition. In particular, fathers who pass on this approach to their sons (and hopefully their daughters) , or sometimes this is through family friends or other relatives.
The following is an oversimplification, of course. A very typical family history for many Americans would be thus: an emigrant from Ireland (or other country) (either Protestant or Catholic) comes over either before, during, or after the famine. Emigrant learns a trade, tootles around America for a while, saves their money, and settles somewhere in the Midwest on a farm. (or if circumstances permit, goes straight to the farm) Money is tight, kids are plenty, so self reliance is a must. Always, one is at the mercy of the weather and various acts of God. A couple of generations pass and the Depression hits. Once again, frugality, the ability to do it yourself and creative solutions are a must. You need a small bandsaw? How about granny's treadle sewing machine? Depression generation gets sent to WWII , attends college, and returns home to become scientists and space engineers. And, give our present shifty economic climate, we'd better be looking back to this self reliant tradition, I think :roll:
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Post by vomitbunny »

I wanted to be an instrument repairman as a teenager. My band director, who was teaching me the skill, moved on though. So I decided to be a band director. I hated that, so I became an hvac tech, gradually working up to controls and programing. Some people were born with hands that are made to hold wrenches. I was not one of those people. I had to learn the hard way.
My philosophy on tweaking is:
Every whiste, save for very expensive ones, can and must be tweaked until (1) you improve it, in which case you keep tweaking it until it is dead and (2) you kill it, in which case you fix it.
I tried making whistles back a few weeks ago. Not much luck. I just ordered some tools and am about to take a second shot at it.
Oh, I took vo ag in high school. didn't learn much.
As far as our educational system and skilled labor, it seems we discourage it. At least in most states. No one wants to aquire a blue collar skill any more. You wind up spending as much time training and being an apprentice as you would going to college to learn a profession. Actually more. Then you don't get paid nearly as well.
Would you want your child to grow up, go to tech school for 18 months and longer, then have to apprentice for 4 or 5 years, and then have a fairly dangerous job, and still not make as much as the worst accountant or engineer? Of course not.
Besides, actually making a product or working with your hands has been frowned upon for years now. Although the focus right now is on high tech jobs being outsourced and moved offshore, it's been happening to the blue collars for 20 years now. (and no one paid any attention)
My opinion is stupid and wrong.
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Post by The Weekenders »

Chuck, Dicty, Stony and others got it right about our Do-It-Yourself culture.

One of the biggest impressions I have from my travels in Europe is that people seem to be directed into occupations from family background more than in the US and are ultra-dependent on craftsmen to have simple household repairs (also, I noted the absence of DIY hardware stores). I have a friend from Italy whose family are all musicians and have been for generations. His American wife (my duo partner) related a story about a family gathering there. A young cousin was sitting in a room reading a book, when his mother came in, snatched the book away, saying "that's not about music, you don't need to know any of that." And the music diplomas have a fairly limited curriculum attached to them.

I am always surprised when i meet an American guy who is clueless with a hammer or saw. Usually, they are ultra-metropolitan guys, mostly from New York and depend on a building "super" I guess. It's very weird to find a California guy who can't fix things.

I have also met fellas from South America who are part of a class system that insists that they keep their hands clean. One of my musical mentors, a classical guitarist, even felt that doing wedding gigs was damaging to a performer's reputation and beneath him. That was hard to swallow.

Experiences like above make me prickly when I hear criticism that my country's culture is lazy, or dependant or somehow elitist..I endured a train trip to Bologna with an Italian communist who lectured me on how lazy Americans are. Here was this SOB, with his dry-cleaned woolen pants, in a country where the women often do laundry by hand while the men sit in the bars, smoking cigarettes, working short hours.

And he was lecturing me about my country where we often work several jobs, take night classes, pursue hobbies with a mania and often neglect our children because we are so damned enterprising. It was hard to take, especially after being chased out of museums before closing time, finding businesses closed for the customary long lunches and being treated with contempt as a customer in so many places. I respect their right to have a different set of priorities, but to be called lazy was over the top.
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