Gibson's Passion

Chuck_Clark · Post by **Chuck_Clark** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:40 pm

Someone should represent other viewpoints here. No, I'm not going. My wife, a practicing methodist, will be going with my catholic mother or with someone from her own sect.

I gave all that stuff up many years ago.

Daniel_Bingamon · Post by **Daniel_Bingamon** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:42 pm

I will probably see the movie mainly because it has been touted as "controversial". I go to a Messianic Jewish Congregation and I am very curious on what the aftermath of this movie will do to Jewish and Christian relations.

I would hope that the movie would be bridge rather than create division.

Re. The odor of the blood sacrifice. To those of us who do believe in Messiah's sacrifice for sin, the regular sacrifices held at the Temple were not neccesarily pleasant. The death brought out due to sin is not a pleasant thing. There is a scripture somewhere that says, "I do not delight in sacrifce", I think it's in Samuel.
It is a reminder of how unpleasant sin is. All I think is the description in Isaiah 52 and 53.

cowtime · Post by **cowtime** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:01 pm

I did see the Diane Sawyer interview the other night. It was very intresting. I've also heard the movie thrashed out on radio, read lots of reviews, checked out the web site, etc.

In addition to being an evangelical tool, I think that perhaps the movie will bring home to many Christians just what Christ did go through for our sakes. When we read of His passion, most of us do not have a real concept of what He endured.

"Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him." John 18:1

" And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him."Mark 15:19

" And it was the third hour ,and they crucified him." Mark 15:25

That really doesn't bring a true word picture to those of us living now unless we have been taught what these words really, physically mean. Certainly not the word picture that statement would bring to folks living at the time , many of whom may have seen a person scourged, smote with a reed, crucified. We may be better able to empathize with the emotional side to His torture- the aloneness, fear(because he did know what would happen), sorrow, shame.

Some Christian denominations may have a better understanding of this than others. Some do teach more about Christ's Passion. I was raised in the Southern Baptist church and while hellfire and damnation was common fare, I shocked the folks when I wore a crucifix, not a cross, to church. I was informed that "we" don't wear that. (perhaps that was my beginning to incline toward my eventual joining of the Episcopal church.

)

I enjoyed the review posted and agree it is one of the most informative review I've read yet.

I will most definately be going to see this movie. I'm famous in my family for not being emotionally affected by a movie, always saying" it's just a movie, it's not real." I can not say that about this movie, because I believe it is the greatest truth mankind has been given. I also think it is no simple twist of fate that this movie has been made. Like Gibson, I think the Holy Spirit is at work here.

It will be hard to watch, but I am compelled to go.

rebl_rn · Post by **rebl_rn** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:02 pm

elendil wrote:
the same Roman Catholic Trappist monastery
Just out of curiousity, is that the place on Lake Oconomowoc? I think it's not there anymore, sold (or at least a good part of it) for real estate development.

No, this was Gethesmane monastery in Kentucky (near Bardstown). The monastery is still there, though there are far fewer monks now than when my dad was there in the 50's. (he went when he was 15 and stayed 11 years).

The one on Lake Oconomowoc I believe you're referring to is Holy Hill - it's still there. They had mass there last summer during the Harley 100th anniversary where they blessed the bikes and the Bishop came riding up in a sidecar. I wasn't there, but know people who were and they said it was pretty cool.

Beth

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:14 pm

At the end of the day, the only way to judge an
artwork is to see it for yourself. All of the apriori theorizing
and theology on earth isn't worth a look. Best

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:37 am

One reason I want so badly to see it is that I think it's important for us to deal with the reality of what Christ did for us. It's too easy, sometimes, to skip ahead to the joy of Easter. It's too easy to see the Passion and the Crucifixion through eyes that know that Easter is coming. The very fact that the blood and the violence are things we'd rather not deal with make them imperative for us to see.

For me, the heartbreaking crux of Holy Week comes on Passion Sunday, when we as a body say "crucify him." I don't have that this year...I'm an exile from my church and my tradition...and perhaps this movie will fill that need.

I'm not sure why anyone would think that the producers should have consulted Orthodox clergy regarding the film. Mel Gibson is a Tridentine Latin Rite Catholic, and he is approaching this from the Western tradition. If he were Orthodox, it would be a different story, but he's not, and it is his movie.

Redwolf

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:20 am

Redwolf wrote:One reason I want so badly to see it is that I think it's important for us to deal with the reality of what Christ did for us.

I believe that we hold this reality each time we participate in the blessed Sacrament.

Tak_the_whistler · Post by **Tak_the_whistler** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 5:41 am

"Shlam", is the key.

I'm interested in the "street Latin" besides Aramaic.
So...Walden, please give us a review should you encounter some interesting usage of casual Latin vocabs and phrases!

Tak_the_whistler · Post by **Tak_the_whistler** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 5:41 am

"Shlam", is the key.

I'm interested in the "street Latin" besides Aramaic.
So...Walden, please give us a review should you encounter some interesting usage of casual Latin vocabs and phrases!

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:08 am

As a pretty comitted Jew of the non-Messianic variety, I have extremely mixed feelings about this film. When I first heard about a film totally in Latin and Aramaic, I was very eager to see it. I am fascinated by Jesus as a teacher and historical figure. Although I do not view him as the Messiah, I have read most of the New Testament and find much wisdom and compassion there. I am also a fan of Mel Gibson, so I have been watching news about this movie with much interest.
I do have fears that a movie like this can be used to fan the smoldering fires of anti Semitism, although I doubt that this is Gibson's intent. I do believe that he, as an extremely devout Catholic, sincerely intends this to be a realistic depiction of the Passion, and his own personal form of devotion, which is admirable. However as the saying goes, the Devil can quote Scripture for his purpose and in this case the anti-Semitic Devils of this world can and may well use this film's less than complimentary depiction of some Jews of the time to further their cause. The conventional Passion Plays of the past were often used to incite Pogroms and other anti Jewish atrocities. Don't think for a minute that it CAN'T happen again, although I pray that it won't. I think that most Christians will have a realistic view of this depiction of the Jews in the movie and realize 1)that they represent only one relatively small part of the Jewish population of the time 2)that the writers of the Gospels were not entirely dispassionate in their depiction of those particular Jews and 3) that those depictions should not be used against all Jews for all time.
On a more mundane level, I really don't enjoy films that depict overly graphic violence of any kind. I know that we are not expected to "enjoy" the violence in this case, but to really feel it on Jesus' behalf, but I don't know if it is something I will choose to subject myself to.
Hopefully, a movie like this wil be beneficial to believers, informative and harmless to non-believers, and in the long run will IMPROVE Jewish/Christian relationships.

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 6:17 am

Tak_the_whistler wrote:I'm interested in the "street Latin" besides Aramaic.
So...Walden, please give us a review should you encounter some interesting usage of casual Latin vocabs and phrases!

Credo nos in fluctu eodem esse.

brewerpaul wrote:On a more mundane level, I really don't enjoy films that depict overly graphic violence of any kind. I know that we are not expected to "enjoy" the violence in this case, but to really feel it on Jesus' behalf, but I don't know if it is something I will choose to subject myself to.

Me either.

emmline · Post by **emmline** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:05 am

Probably not. I prefer meaningful books and lightweight movies. I don't share Mel Gibson's fascination with pain infliction.

elendil · Post by **elendil** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:32 am

The one on Lake Oconomowoc I believe you're referring to is Holy Hill - it's still there. They had mass there last summer during the Harley 100th anniversary where they blessed the bikes and the Bishop came riding up in a sidecar. I wasn't there, but know people who were and they said it was pretty cool.

No, I've forgotten the name of the one on Lake Oconomowoc, but Holy Hill is run by the Franciscans and is in Hubertus, northwest of Milwaukee. Gethsemane, of course, is the most famous. Lake Oconomowoc, by the way, is where the Pabst family, of beer fame, still has a lot of farms and estates, but on the opposite end of the lake.

Daniel, I'll look forward to your perspective on the film, whether I go or not. My feelings tend to be in Paul's direction. Just as it's difficult to balance the idea of God taking to himself human nature in the person of his Anointed, King and High Priest, so too it is, as Redwolf says, difficult to balance the Passion and the Glory. That is an area that the Eastern churches seem to do: I well remember the joy with which one and all greeted each other on Easter--Christos voskres! and the reply: Voistinnu voskres! Christ is Risen! Indeed, He is Risen! This balance is something the Church has struggled with throughout history--probably because this balance is something we all try to live through in our own lives.

My hope is that the realism of the film--not the violence but the true to life details--will bring Christians to a fuller understanding of the reality into which our Savior was born. That reality is the fulfillment of the hope of Israel.

Jon-M · Post by **Jon-M** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:37 am

I will not go. The history of Christianity is drenched with blood, Jewish, Muslim and Christian. The institution known as the Catholic church has historically been a bulwark of repression, socially, politically and spiritually. I say these things in revulsion from and response to the overwhelmingly smug Christianity I find preached on what purports to be a site for music-lovers. Normally I would not speak publicly about any religious expression in a way that might be likely to offend its adherents, but the very public religiosity expressed so often and at such length in this forum has altered the entire feeling of the board and makes coming here an increasingly unpleasant experience, for me at least. Whatever the true intent or value of this movie in itself, it has already become a political symbol of (and is being vigorously marketed to--not an insignificant fact) the most narrow segments of our society.

Post by **Dale** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 8:44 am

I guess to call Mel a devout Catholic is true, but it misses some of the nuance. There is a group of people who essentially reject the teaching authority of the Catholic Church from Vatican II in the 1960s. They insist on the Mass in Latin and, basically, reject all changes of liturgy and theological advances in recent decades. They are better described as reactionary than conservative. They are really separatists. This is why Mel spent a ton of money building a private church--No other Catholic church would do for his and his family's needs.

I have no reason to be critical of this, but I just wanted to point out that describing Mel as a devout Catholic or even "traditionalist" could leave ot an important aspect of all of this. And, again, as several have pointed out, the movie deserves to be evaluated on its own terms.

I was looking around to find a website or 2 that might provide more information about this movement to the interested reader, but I don't know enough about it to be able to pick one that fairly represents it. Also, there doesn't appear to be a single leadership structure--looks like there are schisms and subgroups and so on.