OT (but still music-related): need advice from guitarists

[Kar]

I just started learning guitar about three weeks ago and I'm obsessed with it. I have two questions:

1) Is there a discussion board, like C&F but for guitarists, that anyone could recommend?

2) My left wrist/hand is hurting (from making chords) and my right upper arm is sore (from strumming). I use my hands a LOT--writing, typing, whistle-playing, doing fine manipulation crafts such as needlework & beading--and, in th past, I have only occassionally had issues (slight inflammation) which I dealt with by taking up belly-dance. I know, it sounds weird but you use our hands a lot and that effectively ended the problems.

Now, I am wondering if the current soreness is just a symptom of my muscles getting used to these new movements/positions OR if I am causing damage due to improper playing. I am learning from a book, so...maybe I am gripping too tight or doing something wrong? Because I love playing so much, I have been playing about 1 - 2 hours per day....it is possible I am just overdoing it at the beginning before my body has learned how to move in these new ways?

If you play quitar, can you relate some of your experiences from when you first learned? Was there a learning curve with your hands & arm while the muscles developed?

Thanks!

[antstastegood]

I tried to learn the guitar once. Failed miserably.

Anyway, I would recommend www.wholenote.com. There's a huge archive of lessons and information, and a discussion board. One word about the discussion board, though. While C&F has been one of the friendliest boards I've seen, that forum had serious attitude problems. You can still get help there, but it isn't a place I'd want to hang around much. But this was all well over a year ago. The lessons archive is pretty much the big selling point.

[SteveK]

There's a message board and other stuff, such as some free lessons, at the web site of Acoustic Guitar. I can't help you with the physical problems. You'd need a real guitar player. There are probably some here but you could also ask on the Guitar Talk section of the site.

http://www.acousticguitar.com/

Steve

[The Weekenders]

Kar: It can take years to find the right ways to hold your instrument but hopefully you will be forwarned about it. Yes, you are bound to get some soreness at the outset from repetitive movements but use the same strategies you would at the office; don't stay in same position all the time, get up and stretch and ALWAYS try and relax anything that does not need to be tight. Tension is serial, it goes from shoulders to back to arms etc etc.

It would be best to have a teacher at least coach you through your beginning times to note the obvious in the way you hold the instruments. Different shaped guitars offer either ease or pain, depending on how you are built, how long your arms are etc etc. There is no one correct way to hold the thing, though classical guitarists have a basic set of principles they follow. You might go down to the Guitar Solo store, somewhere in SOMA I think nowadays, and LOOK through a bunch of instructional books to see what the various pros say, rather than drop a bundle of money on just one approach.

Also, realize that a lot of people have stereotypical ideas of how to hold the guitar that are detrimental to back and neck health. Many steel string players, with long necked instruments with large bodies, often hold their left shoulder down too far, because they are balancing the instrument on their right leg, rather than the left leg, as a classical player would.

Sometimes, standing up using a strap is safer for your posture than contorting yourself on the couch to hold it. It all depends on the shape of your instrument.

Good luck.

[SteveK]

There's a message board and other stuff, such as some free lessons, at the web site of Acoustic Guitar. I can't help you with the physical problems. You'd need a real guitar player. There are probably some here but you could also ask on the Guitar Talk section of the site.

http://www.acousticguitar.com/

Steve

Edited after reading ants answer. I used to read the bulletin borad at Acoustic Guitar. I never noticed any attitude problems there. Some top guitar players hang out there.

I guess it wasn't edited after all. It was a new message. Oh well. Now it's edited.

[kkrell]

I just started learning guitar about three weeks ago and I'm obsessed with it. I have two questions:

1) Is there a discussion board, like C&F but for guitarists, that anyone could recommend?

I have links to a number of Guitar resources at the ITMS website http://www.worldtrad.org , under INSTRUMENTS->GUITAR .

You might want to participate in the USENET newsgroup rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic

Kevin Krell

[ScottStewart]

Kar, I've been playing guitar for 30 years, and teaching for 15. If you are having serious soreness or pain, then something is wrong. The only pain you should experience is some tenderness in your fingertips from pressing the strings. And that should go away with the build up of callouses. I suggest consulting a teacher for one or two lessons to correct your technique. You may continue to study from a book, but there's nothing better than having someone evaluate how you are doing and helping to fix it. It may also be that your guitar is too big for you. Some folks are smaller bodied and find it difficult to hold a dreadnought size guitar.

As far as forums go, the one suggested at www.acousticguitar.com is good. Here's a direct link to their forums - http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi/Ultimate.cgi

If you see anyone posting by the username "tinwhistle" there, that's me. There's a beginner forum, a playing forum, etc. It is one of the best places out there for acoustic guitarists.

Oh, and playing one to two hours a day can be a bit much, but it really shouldn't cause a lot of pain. Pros practice eight or more hours a day. I personally put in about thirty minutes or more a day, but not two hours anymore unless I'm preparing for an important performance. In any case, you've started down a very rewarding path. Feel free to email or PM me if you have any other questions.

[LimuHead]

Hi Kar!

It was nice meeting you at the last SF whistle thing. I'm still planning on getting one of Jubilee's Klezmer whistles - that thing's a blast to play!

I agree with Weeks on the teacher thing. I don't know any teachers in the city, but I'm sure there are hundreds.

I teach guitar. Here's what I tell my students:

The main thing for the left hand and arm is to not have a huge bend in the wrist. It should be close to straight, with a natural, but slight bend to it. The classical position offers the best way for this to happen. Having too much of a bend in the wrist will cause problems and pain.


Also, don't press too hard with your fingers. One experiment you can do is to gradually lower a finger onto the fretboard while repeatedly plucking the string. It should go something like this: at first you'll hear the open string. Then the string will be dampened as your finger contacts the string. As you add more pressure you'll get to a point where the fretted note speaks. That's all the pressure you need. Adding any more pressure doesn't do anything to the sound. Be sure and place your fingers right up next to the frets, not between them (or on top of them).

Sometimes guitars have what they call a "high action." That's when the strings are far away from the frets. This is good for slide guitarists, but bad for fretters. Having an action set high means you have to use more pressure to fret the string. Any guitar shop can look at it for you if you're unsure about it.

Hope that helps,
Aldon

[BrassBlower]

Another thing to beware of is method books which have you playing chords in the key of C right away. I've played guitar for 11 years now, and I STILL try to avoid that dratted F chord! When I encounter a tune in the key of C, I often either capo the 3rd fret and play in A, or the 5th fret and play in G.

If you are chording and strumming, the easiest keys for a guitar are probably the same as those for a D whistle.

[Kar]

I really appreciate the response, everyone! Thank you for the advice. I DO have a very small frame--5'1" and tiny hands to match--and am considering maybe getting a smaller guitar. It's possible I am pressing down too hard on the neck and I think I will try the offered advice of finding the "just right" pressure.

I'm happy to say I have already developed callouses (yay!) and it's only in the last couple days I have experienced any soreness of arm/hand. I'll stretch & maybe do shorter sessions more frequently rather than marathon ones. And I plan to check out some of the forums when I can and possibly can find a guitar teacher for at least one or two lessons.

I'm also happy to say that, although I can't do an F and think I never will be able to, with the dozen or so chords I CAN play, it seems I can play a HUGE number of songs out there! And I'm learning how to transpose (for songs written with 1-4-5 chords) and avoid that F. It is a very rewarding instrument!

Everyone is so wonderful on this forum. Every time I need help, advice, or have a question, SOMEONE (and usually more than one) knows what to do, where to go, etc. I love C&F.

[missy]

two words:

Mountain dulcimer!!!!

I'm serious. I tried guitar (my dad played). I tried a 3/4 size student guitar. I even tried a tenor guitar. It just never "worked".

I eventually got a dulcimer - found a teacher - and the rest is history!

And it blends in GREAT with a D whistle (or any key as long as you tune to it!)

Missy

[ScottStewart]

Kar, since you are considering getting a smaller guitar I have a couple recommendations. Seagull makes a couple great sounding and economical guitars. The best is their "Folk" model, the other is the "Grand" model. The folk is a mid size guitar with great string to string balance and very good tone. The grand is a parlor size, much smaller but with a standard scale length. Both are around $300 to $400 new. I could buy a much more expensive guitar, but instead opted to buy three different models of Seagulls. The folk is my favorite. Check them out if you get a chance. No, I don't work for Seagull or any affiliate, I just love their guitars.

[Darwin]

One interesting thing that I heard several times on the Flatpick-L mail list was that people with small hands often do better with slightly wider necks--and with 12 frets to the body, instead of 14. (See http://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/fea ... index.html for some possibilities.)

Regarding posture, (assuming that you are right-handed) sit fully upright in a chair that lets you sit with your right foot on the floor, your right lower leg vertical, and your right thigh parallel to the floor. Raise your left foot (about 4-7 inches) on a couple of books (though adjustable stands are available), place the waist of the guitar on your left thigh, and hold the instrument at about 30-to-45 degrees to the floor. If you need to look at the fingerboard while you're learning, tilt the guitar back a few degrees, rather than leaning out over it. http://geocities.com/nitaro74/seat.htm and http://www.guitarnoise.com/article.php?id=217 might help.

A lot of left-hand tension comes from the newness of it. As Limuhead pointed out, it takes a surprisingly small amount of pressure to press the strings down. I can easily make an F chord without even putting my thumb behind the neck, because what pressure I do exert is going to precisely the right places. Of course, this assumes that you have a reasonably decent guitar. My first guitar was a Sears Silvertone with a warped neck that made it very difficult to play--though it would have been great for slicing cheese. Light-gauge strings can help at first.

Try just sitting and holding it, and see if you can relax, let your shoulders drop, and keep a straight wrist with your left hand supporting the neck. If not, adjust your position until you can. (And don't forget that it's okay to breathe while playing.)

[BrassBlower]

two words:

Mountain dulcimer!!!!

I'm serious. I tried guitar (my dad played). I tried a 3/4 size student guitar. I even tried a tenor guitar. It just never "worked".

I eventually got a dulcimer - found a teacher - and the rest is history!

And it blends in GREAT with a D whistle (or any key as long as you tune to it!)

Missy

Hi, Missy!

This is Dulcilydian from EverythingDulcimer.com. How are you doing?

[Wombat]

I've been playing guitar for a long time too but most of the advice I'd give has already appeared. Just a couple of points though.

Scott is right in saying that sore finger tips should be the main problem for a beginner. When I started I actually had bleeding finger tips at one stage. There is a way to speed up the development of callouses though. When you're not playing, use Friar's Balsam (also known in these parts as tinc benz co) on your finger tips. It toughens the skin.

The other point is so obvious that maybe nobody has thought of it. Have you had your guitar 'set up' by a competent luthier? Off the rack, guitars can come with a variety of problems. Perhaps the strings are higher above the fretboard than they need be. Perhaps you are using heavier strings than you need. Both of these things could cause you problems and have nothing to do with faulty technique.

Edited to add: Darwin has thought of some of the adviice I just gave.