Hey Makers, What's your tuning?

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 6:42 pm

By the way, didn't want to say this until I found evidence -- I'm pretty sure the reason tuning a piano (just intonation or whatever) by octaves sounds bad is that pianos should not be tuned to exact octaves:

A further peculiarity in piano tuning is the practice of stretching the upper and lower octaves. This refers to progressively sharpening the notes of the upper octaves from a perfect equal tempered scale. The reason for this has to do with what is known as the inharmonicity of ringing strings.

See http://www.precisionstrobe.com/apps/pia ... emper.html (the source of the quote) for more information.

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 6:42 pm

colomon wrote:Lorenzo, what is the source of your information on tuning? I'm no expert, but it looks very wrong to me.

Been tuning pianos professionally, off and on, since I was abou 15 years old, I'm 48 now. Also, a 4th generation piano tuner on my dad's side of the family. Six of us cousins and bothers, and sometimes more, are involved in the business now...3 full-time, the rest part-time. some of the colleges and universities have people with extremely critical ears. My uncle use to tune concert grands for Van Cliburn, and he would always have my uncle stand up in the audience for special recognition during northwest tours and performances.

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:03 pm

That's really cool, Lorenzo. What a fun profession to have in the family.

I would hate to make a precedence of this, but I agree with Lorenzo. (boy, you're 48 - no wonder you're so ornery

) My experience with Just vs. TET has revealed that for practical purposes there is such small difference that it is not worth the time worrying over it. The difference in breath pressure and aural tuning makes a much greater impact (measured in 20,30 or even 50 cents) than does the set just scale (memory has it that the max is around 11 cents off on 3rd - could be wrong, though).

There are folks out there that would die for Just Intonation, though, so I just want to say that just intonation is really cool. I'm sure that you are all very nice people. Very nice. And I'm not just saying that.

Erik

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:23 pm

If you go through a bunch of whistles (Generations, Shaws, Feadogs, etc.) you'll find that many will play a third (F# on a D whistle) that shows up a good 10 to 15 cents flat against an equal tempered tuner.

The rest of the notes are close enough between just intonation and equal temperament that you can bring them up or down to pitch with breath control. However, a just intonation third is about 13 cents flat to an equal tempered third, and that's where there's a noticeable difference between just intonation and equal temperament tuned instruments.

Erik, when you put a Generation against a tuner, it's obvious that the third is intended to be flatter than an equal tempered third (or somebody really goofed), and it's not practical, or at least easy, in my experience, to blow it all the way up to an equal tempered third.

I prefer the sound of that "flat" (if you use equal temperament as your reference) third that just intonation produces. It just sounds right to me. To my ear, an equal tempered third sounds too sharp.

If you've been playing Generations, etc. and you have a good ear for blowing your pitches so you like the way they sound, chances you've been playing just intonation all along because to most people, it sounds "right."

Best wishes,
Jerry

billw · Post by **billw** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:25 pm

All of the whistles from Serpent Music are tuned to Equal, which is what you get "standard" on most electronic tuners (I use a Korg). I've never had a request for Just, but certainly would do one if someone wanted it.
Cheers,
Bill Whedon
Serpent Music

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:28 pm

Yes, I think that you're right there, Jerry. I've often wondered (and I'm not alone) if Generation et al intentionally tune the third and seventh slightly flat (as an accomodation between Just and TET). I don't think that it is exactly set to Just intonation, but perhaps somewhere in between. However, I fully admit that you have probably tested WAY more Gens than I have and will submit to your experience.

Erik

colomon · Post by **colomon** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:30 pm

Apologies on my "poor tuning" comments, Lorenzo, but your original statement on just tuning was pretty misleading -- if you tune it properly, the just tuned piano will be the most in tune piano you've ever heard -- but only in whatever key it was tuned to.

One of my high school friends is very big in the early music scene, and I recently went to one of his concerts. I don't recall exactly what keyboard instrument it is they used -- but before one of the pieces they retuned one of the notes on it so it would be properly in tune for that particular piece. (And tuned it back the original way after it the piece was done.) However, I'm not sure if they were using just tuning, mean-tone, or some other early scale.

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:37 pm

I've mentioned several times the following book... well worth the read:

Temperament

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:39 pm

Lorenzo,

I think we're talking about two different phenemona here. I'm not familiar with the phenomenon of inharmonicity of ringing strings that requires a stretching of octaves in tuning pianos. I don't dispute that it's a real effect that must be compensated for.

What I'm talking about is the fact that when you start constructing keys based on a perfect harmonic interval within the original key, working your way up and down the cycle of fifths to produce keys with sequentially one more sharp or flat as you go from key to key, you don't end up exact octaves apart between a note in one key and a note with the same name in another key. This requires another kind of "stretching of octaves" to produce scales with notes that can be used in multiple keys. The result of having to do this if you want an instrument playable in all keys, is the various tempering schemes, of which equal temperament has become the standard.

Best wishes,
Jerry

Daniel_Bingamon · Post by **Daniel_Bingamon** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:43 pm

My whistles are tuned to Equal Temperment with +/- 5 cents at moderate pressure, 70 Degrees F.

The special modes, like Ahava-Rabba and others are normally equal temperment unless otherwise requested.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:49 pm

By the way, folks ...

This is a terrific thread. It really helps (at least it helps me) to compare notes and share information about the tuning of different whistles.

Erik, I agree with you that most of the whistles that come with a flatter than equal tempered third tend to fall somewhere in between just and equal. But they do run consistently flatter than equal, while the rest of the notes are much closer (suggesting that it isn't a mistake, since they could match an equal tempered third more closely if they wanted to), and some of them are definitely all the way down to just.

Best wishes,
Jerry

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:58 pm

One of the reasons I prefer the Clarke original design is that it is "bendable" enough to play either ET or JI. It comes in handy when playing with a concertina, fiddle, then with mandolin.

I can play in tune with each as everything except bottom D seems to "blow" into tune with whatever.

I had to get Michael Burke to re-tune one my low whistles because the C nat and C sharp were too sharp to my ear and I couldn't blow them down.

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 7:59 pm

Yes, it was misleading colomon, I was referring to the piano as a whole, not just the C scale.

That's a good link. Reading the whole thing...along towards the bottom, it verifies what I was saying about a "just" piano sounding off. It's talking about why an organ isn't tuned to "just." And, it talks about why "just" doesn't work for other keys in the 12 note scale. The octaves are always perfect, from one to the next, but not especially from one to the third and fourth above. As the article says, the octaves are progressively stretched (according to math and the machine), because the further the note gets from middle C, the less accurately the ear interprets the tone. A perfectly mathematically tuned C, four octaves above middle C will sound off to the natural human ear...it's getting close to being out of our hearing range, so the strings are stretch to let the imperfect human ear think it's in tune. There have been times when I have just stretched the upper 7-8 note out of hearing range, and no one could even tell. I only do that on painos with terrible sounding boards that offer false harmonics.

I'm not sure how to explain it any further, but if you set the temperment scale F to F, around middle C, and tune it imperfectly to itself (called the temerament scale), then all octaves perfectly to each other (involving the progressive stretch, both up and down) you have a perfectly professionally tuned piano that is tempered, or tolerably imperfect. Make any sense?

A paino tuned "just" is just wrong, as discovered by Bach, although the octaves are the same, except there's no stretch (mathematically speaking) in "just." and any instrument tuned to "just" can probably be played with the piano (tolerably) in the middle octave, but when it goes to the second, you'll not like it. Just would be right if we played in one key the human ear was right, but it ain't, so we compromise and call it good. And it is as good as the human ear.

Ted, our senior uilleann piper expert from the UP forum just advised pipers not to try to tune to electronic tuning instruments because the playing note, due to pressure differences, will be different than the tuning note. It's not stable enough for the subtle differences. And, on the whistle recorder, and flute, the instrument is tuned to each person's embouchure, not to a machine. That's why it's good for some and not for other. Don't tune individual notes to a machine. Tune one note maybe, the one in the middle most easy to repeat, then tune the rest of the whistle to that note while playing to a drone or other stable instrument. You'll see pipers and flute players taping holes, filing, filling with clay or putty, it has to be individualized.

Hands-on experience with piano tuning will teach anyone that there's almost an imperceptible difference between a tempered and just 4th (C-F) and 5th (C-G), but it will show up in the 6ths (C-A) and 3rds (C-E)...the tests for the piano tuner.

You're right Jerry, it's not out of tune with the piano or each other, at least to the imperfect human ear which we all nearly have. Just is always out of tune with tempered, technically, but I would challenge anyone to demonstrate the difference, hitting the two different notes in succession by voice, or with a bagpipe, etc, with the listener looking at his $5K tuning machine, lights rotating each way in thousandths p/second.

Erik, a life of concern for details made me that way!

Now I have an adversion to generalities. BTW, we just had an lady move down here from Alaska. She organized Irish music concerts, dances, etc., and played with a band. Her name is Laura Hall..do you know her?

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:19 pm

Lorenzo,

I can sometimes (not always) hear the difference between just and equal tuning on the third but not on any other notes of a scale. (Actually, rereading your post, I think I may be hearing it on the sixth, as well. I haven't investigated that, but I do often notice that something funny is going on around about the sixth on different whistles. I'll have to take a closer look at that.) That makes sense, because they say the average human ear can't distinguish notes within five cents of a pitch.

It's my understanding, a just intonation third is 13 cents flat to an equal tempered third, so that should be audible. Since we routinely hear both (just on fretless stringed instruments and singing; equal on fretted and keyboard instruments), it's likely that whether we're hearing a just or equal third at any particular time, both will sound "right," since they're both familiar.

Singing chords and harmony, however, is different from simply singing a tune acappelo and hoping to get the intervals spot on. Because there's a physical linkage between the sounds each part in a sung chord or harmony is making, you can adjust your pitches to spot on intervals with the other singers. This is similar to how you tune a guitar (you probably use the same technique with pianos) when you play two strings and adjust them so they blend together with no "beats."

Again, the stretching phenomenon you're describing isn't anything to do with the difference between just and equal tuning. If you have to stretch the distances for an equal tempered piano, I'm pretty sure you would do the same thing for a just intonation keyboard, with the result that the intervals and harmonies of the just tuned keyboard would sound less dissonant, but you could only play in one key.

There's a different stretching phenomenon that comes into play when you try to make an instrument play multiple keys, and that second, different, stretching phenomenon is what gives rise to tempered scales.

Best wishes,
Jerry

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:36 pm

Lorenzo wrote:BTW, we just had an lady move down here from Alaska. She organized Irish music concerts, dances, etc., and played with a band. Her name is Laura Hall..do you know her?

The name sounds familiar, but I'm not sure that I know her. Was she from Anchorage or Fairbanks? Was she with Acoustic Adventures or Celtic Confussion?

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Hey Makers, What's your tuning?

Equal or Just