Humidor

[IDAwHOa]

These issues tend to really get people's knickers bunched up, and then people new to wooden flutes get all paranoid.

A couple people have suggested this already, but I'll add my vote to the common sense camp: oil if/when necessary (I do, for the record) and don't expose the flute to rapid extremes in temperature or humidity. In my opinion, the best humidifier is playing it regularly.

Yeah, even with a $250 wooden flute you do not want to create a situation where you risk damage to the instrument. I have also added wooden whistles to my collection recently at a pretty high price tag so this thread has caught my interest big time.

One question though:

If the instrument is "properly" oiled how does the exterior environment (ambient humidity or breath from playing) affect the interior of the wood? Is the oil not impervious to moisture/humidity? If the oil does block the humidity I would think that excessive (whatever that is) temperature swings would be the biggest enemy.

[feadog39]

Ok, two questions for everyone. What would you say is the best method of hydrating the inside of your flute storage? Humidor hydrator? Wet sponge, a wet blanket, getting your dog to stand over it after he drinks? And 2ndly, how much do you think you would have to spend to get a good hydrometer?

here is exactly what pat olwell told me regarding the first question: you want something that delivers humidity into the air SLOWLY. Not a sloshy sponge, like i had been using. He specifically said that orange peels (yes, soaked orange peels) do a great job.

[Loren]

One question though:

If the instrument is "properly" oiled how does the exterior environment (ambient humidity or breath from playing) affect the interior of the wood? Is the oil not impervious to moisture/humidity? If the oil does block the humidity I would think that excessive (whatever that is) temperature swings would be the biggest enemy.

The oils typically used for flute oiling do almost nothing to prevent water vapor from passing through them, so they are not really any sort of effective barrier in that way. Sure, water drops will bead on the oiled surface, but water vapor penetrates with little difficulty - essentially the same way Gore-Tex works.

Loren

[tin tin]

Which begs the quesion, why oil?

[sturob]

Actually, how do you know oil (in the sense of how we oil a flute) lets vapor through, Loren? That's definitely counterintuitive. An emulsion of something hydrophobic like oil wouldn't let water through unless the barrier had holes in it, I wouldn't think.

Stuart

[Loren]

Actually, how do you know oil (in the sense of how we oil a flute) lets vapor through, Loren? That's definitely counterintuitive. An emulsion of something hydrophobic like oil wouldn't let water through unless the barrier had holes in it, I wouldn't think.

Stuart

Stuart,

Gore-Tex is counterintuitive as well, until one understands the science, no?

To answer your questions: I learned the info in question from a flute maker who is a former engineer. He explained to me that there is a (scientific) index which gives ratings to how permeable certain substances are to water vapor. The oils like linseed, almond, etc. are practically at the bottom of the scale, meaning water vapor just waltzes right on through. Interesting, eh?

Loren

[Loren]

Here's a link to a short bit of the info - obviously not complete, but all I had the time to dig up : http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/techline/III-9.pdf

Poor old linseed oil rates a zero out of one hundred on the MEE scale

Loren

[sturob]

I actually don't know that I believe it, really. I seriously doubt that water vapor would waltz through an oil like linseed or almond. I don't doubt that I could be incorrect, but . . . given the fact that oil and water are relatively inmiscible, and that oil forms a somewhat hydrophobic barrier, what it might do is slow the flux of water. That would be important.

I know that there are makers who espose the idea of epoxying the bore of instruments. I don't think that's a good idea unless they epoxy both sides, which they don't. It might cause more long-term problems than it solves, but again, I don't know.

If you ever come across that maker again, and he/she knows the permeability coefficients of various oils, I think it would be fun to see what they are.

Stuart

[sturob]

Good! Thanks for the reference (I posted my message before I saw your link). At least I can stop using stupid linseed.

And I'm glad I can save face and say that the page you linked backs up my idea that coating the bore might not be the best idea. Sure, the bore is where the moist breath is . . . but you also get some on the outside, particularly of the headjoint.

Hmm!


Stuart

[Loren]

Well now the solution is clear: We should all be playing flutes dipped in parrafin!

Loren

[sturob]

Well, it's not clear. There's an interesting page here which goes into the whole thing with more depth vis-à-vis woodwinds.

The implications are twofold, I think. First, it seems that linseed stinks only if you don't expose it (meaning don't allow it to polymerize). Once it polymerizes it acts more like a polyurethane varnish; I wonder if the site you(Loren) quoted before didn't allow for polymerization. Second, he(page author) seems to think breathability (meaning ALLOWING water vapor to pass through to some degree) is important.

Crap, now I have to fish the linseed out of the trash!

Stuart

[jim stone]

The devil has made me drink vodka, the antidote
to five days of darkness and cold, so let me express
my views about oil. If one breaks in a flute gradually and
keep playing it, it will absorb moisture so that more
will not ingress in great amounts when playing, which
can crack the flute.

Oil, therefore, may come in handy initially, in
preventing too rapid absorption of moisture
from breath while the flute is being broken in.

However, after that, while oil will do no harm and
may beautify the wood and improve the performance
of the flute by discouraging droplets from collecting
in the bore (they run out the end or whatever, on
account of the oil), it does little to protect the
flute from moisture.

Humidifying is a good idea, in case things get
ultra dry; it keeps the level of moisture inside
the broken-in flute stable.

So far my impression is that various makers
have their own lore about what to do or not to
do concerning oiling wooden flutes. This stuff has its charm,
which is precisely the charm of things mideival,
of lore, as it were, which people swear by or against.
I like this stuff, it in no way detracts from
my respect for these wizards, but my impression
is that oiling may make little difference after
a flute is broken in, if one humidifies it.
Best to all, Jim

[Blackbeer]

Ok here is my take on oil and moisture et-all. Now again this is from a boat building perspective and don`t expect any scientific mumbo jumbo. I learned the trade from long dead master boat builders that had apsalutly no need of cridability. There work was there credability and how long it lasted attested to their mastery. Wood, unless epoxy saturated, needs to breath. It needs to take on its environment. It also needs to be oiled because in the process of cureing it looses its essential oils which, in order to maintain the balance dictated by the spacific wood, must be replaced to a certain extent for the preservation of the wood. Now woods like teak and cedar don`t loose much of there oils and therefore require little attention but oak for instance is a real bugger and needs looking after most regularly. I have know idea what blackwood requires other then it is wood and therefore needs to breath so I wouldn`t use some kind of sealing oil on it. I wouldn`t, you may. My rosewood flute loves to be oiled and sounds better for it. Playing is the best I think for the blackwood flutes. If they are played regularly their moisture content will stabalize and that is that. I oil the blackwood flutes and they can take it or leave it. Its up to them. It sure doesn`t hert. I treated iron bark the same way and it kinda remindes me of blackwood. Now again I have no credable scientific evadence to back up what I just said.
And it is only the way I deal with these cridders.

Tom

[andrew]

Linseed oil is wonderful for gluing together the two parts of your tuning slide.It has just taken a big strong repairer with a kettle of hot water days to unglue a boxwood Potter I have !

[jim stone]

I've heard it said that blackwood is oily.