percussion?

[antstastegood]

(In case you are wondering, no, I am not going to take up the bodhran)

That said, I would like to learn a bit about how percussion works into Irish and other Celtic music. I understand that I may be opening up quite a can of worms here, but I'm completely clueless about the topic.

Sound clips of what is considered good percussion accompaniment would be great. Any and all info is greatly appreciated..

thanks

ants

[fancypiper]

The main percussion instruments are feet, bodhran and bones, so I will point you to the bodhrán page. Pedar and Mel Mercier are good names to search out.

online sound samples

[boyd]

One of the biggest "things" in Irish music is that the melody instrument provides the percussion.

The pipes [in the right hands] are a good example of this....but the same rule applies to fiddle, flute, whistle etc

That's what all the ornamentation is for.

Boyd
[percussionist]

[Pat Cannady]

One of the biggest "things" in Irish music is that the melody instrument provides the percussion.

HELLO! CLUE PHONE!!!

edited to include the following;

That might have sounded a bit gruff, sorry, but that's the truth of the matter - in ITM, every instrument is a percussion instrument. The percussive effect is inherent to the melody and the style with which it is played. Seen that way, the bodhran, the spoons, the bones - they're only a bit of color at most. The best bodhran players play the TUNE when they do play, stay away from "patterns" that don't necessarily mesh with the tune and don't play all the time. Most of your better bodhrani/bones/spoons players can already play at least one melody instrument; all of the good ones know lots of tunes and can at least lilt them if they don't play another instrument.

The big bodhran solos you see at festivals are just show biz.

[Wombat]

One of the biggest "things" in Irish music is that the melody instrument provides the percussion.

HELLO! CLUE PHONE!!!

edited to include the following;

That might have sounded a bit gruff, sorry, but that's the truth of the matter - in ITM, every instrument is a percussion instrument. The percussive effect is inherent to the melody and the style with which it is played. Seen that way, the bodhran, the spoons, the bones - they're only a bit of color at most. The best bodhran players play the TUNE when they do play, stay away from "patterns" that don't necessarily mesh with the tune and don't play all the time. Most of your better bodhrani/bones/spoons players can already play at least one melody instrument; all of the good ones know lots of tunes and can at least lilt them if they don't play another instrument.

The big bodhran solos you see at festivals are just show biz.

I both agree strongly and disagree strongly.

I agree strongly that every instrument is a percussion instrument in ITM and that this is important to realise.

I disagree strongly with the impication that this is somehow both a distinctive feature of ITM and also something of an explanation of why a percussion section as such isn't required. It is just as true of jazz, city blues, Latin and African music that melody instruments are crucial to the rhythmic propulsion of the music. Since each of these styles employs rhythm sections as such, the rhythmic role of melody instruments in ITM cannot explain why ITM can happily do without instruments specifically devoted to percussion.

[Pat Cannady]

Then we must agree to disagree. Percussion adds very little to ITM in my opinion and I feel a majority of serious melody players share this opinion. By "serious" I mean musicians who know at least a few hundred tunes and can play them all at a steady, danceable pace. Perhaps that disposes them toward a bias because of the hard work involved in achieving that. I plead guilty to that bias, at any rate.

You can add all the percussion you want but the result almost always sounds contrived (to my and a lot of other peoples' ears) unless the percussion is extraordinarily sensitive to dynamics and the rhythms inherent in the melody, ie stays out of the way and lets the tune come through.

[meemtp]

Amen to that Pat. You get enough people playing, and between the playing, and the feet tapping/stomping out the rhythm, you've got all the percussion you need. As an aside, the fellow with the digeridoo that I refered to in the "instruments that irk" thread, is the most annoying Bodhran player I've ever heard. He just taps the tipper up and down the skin of the drum. it sounds like someone running up and down the stairs.


Corin

[The Weekenders]

Well, I like this discussion.

For all my years of comparing various culture's music, like European, Indian, African etc., I came up with some ways of looking at it.

In European classical music, percussion is subjugated (or sublimated, not sure how to say it) into the melody and harmony instruments so that, for example, a trill at the end of a Mozart or Baroque phrase, actually functions as a snare drum roll or other percussion flourish. By doing that, the composers could get more and more complex without having the percussion drown out subleties. You end up with polyphony, modulations and complex harmonies etc etc. African music has very soulful but repetitive melodies and tons of percussion. Indian music has both, with very complex melodic improvisation but always staying in one key. And their percussion has a lot of melodic character too, with the tabla playing scales and such.

I think that in Irish music, variety percussion is most appropriate for marches, which have the simplest, most repetitive melodies, with polkas following. Hornpipes lend themselves to some variety too. I like bones on jigs for example but not all the time. But reels can get so thick and complex that they become like the argument above (about classical music). The percussion is sublimated into the melody instrument. Tommy People's fiddlin is pretty dang percussive and it would seem that anything other than very subtle bodhran would mess it up. Heck, maybe not at all for him. But some reels sound nice with it.

[djm]

Just my 2 cents. In another thread about bass guitar accompaniment I pointed out that the whole pitch range that a bass guitar could fill is left empty by most trad instruments. I would like to suggest the same holds true for a deep voiced bodhrán.

As long as it is just a subliminal element in the overall sound, there is no conflict between the bodhrán's voice and the other instruments. It just has to keep a simple pattern and avoid being out of step with the tune being played. This is, of course, pretty boring for the bodhrán player, so letting him/her do Inna-Godda-da-Vida everyonce in a while might help keep them in line.

djm

[Wombat]

Then we must agree to disagree. Percussion adds very little to ITM in my opinion and I feel a majority of serious melody players share this opinion. By "serious" I mean musicians who know at least a few hundred tunes and can play them all at a steady, danceable pace. Perhaps that disposes them toward a bias because of the hard work involved in achieving that. I plead guilty to that bias, at any rate.

You can add all the percussion you want but the result almost always sounds contrived (to my and a lot of other peoples' ears) unless the percussion is extraordinarily sensitive to dynamics and the rhythms inherent in the melody, ie stays out of the way and lets the tune come through.

Well it might not have been fully clear from my post, but we don't disagree on any point you are making here. I wasn't calling into question your judgement or your playing credentials; I was calling into question an implication of your argument which was that the rhythmic role of melody instruments in Irish music is somehow distinctive and therefore explains the lack of a need for a rhythm section. I mentioned several other musics to which the rhythmic role of melody instruments is as crucial as it is in ITM but in which rhythm sections are employed nonetheless.

So we both agree that ITM doesn't require dedicated rhythm players. Maybe you didn't mean to imply that this feature is explained in the way I've been criticising. If so, we don't disagree at all. If not, you haven't addressed my argument and no amount of playing experience or good taste will fill a gaping hole in a bad argument.

[Nanohedron]

As long as it is just a subliminal element in the overall sound, there is no conflict between the bodhrán's voice and the other instruments. It just has to keep a simple pattern and avoid being out of step with the tune being played.

This follows my preferences. I love flute/bodhrán duos; very primal and focused. But if the drummer is going all over the place as if it's a xylophone, it just doesn't work for me. Skill doesn't always equal good taste. Not that I'm setting myself up as an officer of the Pure Drop Good Taste Police, mind you; that's just my own take on it. *as he dons his flameproof smoking jacket*

[Pat Cannady]

I never said ITM was unique in its not needing dedicated percussion to be good, and if you read that from my initial post you misinterpreted me. My post was concerned only with ITM. Other genres can do as they like.

So, it appears then that we agree that within the confines of traditional music, dedicated percussion instruments are not necessary. They can be used to a nice effect, say by a really good ceili band like the Tulla, but an unaccompanied solo fiddle or flute can be just as tremendous if not more so.

[Wombat]

I never said ITM was unique in its not needing dedicated percussion to be good, and if you read that from my initial post you misinterpreted me. My post was concerned only with ITM. Other genres can do as they like.

OK, a quick look at your intitial post suggests that I did misinterpret it. But that was because you seemed to be quoting approvingly someone who did seem to be implying that the rhythmic role of melody instruments in ITM explains why a rhythm section isn't needed. I pointed out why, although true that melody instruments have a crucial rhythmic role, that is no explanation.

It's not compulsory to be interested in explaining why ITM works the way it does, but I, for one, am curious to know why what works works and what doesn't doesn't. I don't see how you would get very far with that without drawing comparisons with other musics. That said, not having answers to questions like this isn't going to prevent someone from being a very good player nor is having answers going to go very far towards making someone a good player.

[Bloomfield]

I disagree strongly with the impication that this is somehow both a distinctive feature of ITM and also something of an explanation of why a percussion section as such isn't required. It is just as true of jazz, city blues, Latin and African music that melody instruments are crucial to the rhythmic propulsion of the music. Since each of these styles employs rhythm sections as such, the rhythmic role of melody instruments in ITM cannot explain why ITM can happily do without instruments specifically devoted to percussion.

ITM is different from jazz, blues, and Latin (I don't know enough African music) in this curcial point: ITM is single-line music, meaning that everything (including rhythm & percussion) is packed into a single line. This is not the case for jazz blues or Latin, all of which use harmony lines and chords as essential part of the idiom. Of course the melody line is still a big part of the rhythm & beat; but you can't imagine jazz or blues without chord progressions or Latin without (homophonic) harmony lines. Harmony lines (as separate from the melody line) and non-melodic percussion instruments may not be alien to ITM, but they are not essential. (Meaning if you listen to Bobby Casey playing solo, nothing is missing from the music; if you listen to Kind of Blue with everything stripped out but Miles' horn, something is missing.)

[Wombat]

I think that's a good point Bloomy. There are forms of blues, delta blues for example, which are sometimes not harmonic and in which there is a single melody line. This sort of blues doesn't require rhythmic backup, although it will tolerate it, so long as the solo instrumentalist doesn't have an eccentric and variable sense of metre. It will also tolerate polyphony in a way ITM doesn't; at least not according to most pure drop enthusiasts.

Another feature of ITM that is relevant is the way the melody line tends to fill the available space on dance tunes. Jazz improvisers often let the rhythm section lift and cushion them, leaving lots of space. You can't do that in ITM.