Sweets

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:47 pm

I just spotted a couple of interesting new things in Ralph Sweet's site:

A new fully keyed flute, called a "Firth & Pond" model, but apparently derived from many different kinds of flutes.
A fife head for his "professional model" D whistle (joining Dixon and others in offering a flute/whistle hybrid). See also the professional fife.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 5:16 pm

It would be nice to hear from people who
have played Sweet's top of the line keyed
flutes.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:22 pm

Has an interesting quote from Woodenflute's own Paul Mulvaney; "Best flute you've made yet." Interesting not-quite-a-full-compliment from Paul.
Gordon

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:46 pm

Yeah, that's damning with faint praise, maybe. The flute is interesting.

It's also interesting to me that there's so much interest in Grey-Larsen-emulating. In his own words, he's a maverick; I admire his technique but his sound isn't one I'd want to emulate.

But he wrote a good flute/whistle manual, perhaps you've heard?

Stuart

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 6:53 pm

Well, that was a quick topic changer, Stuart, but I agree with you. There's a growing trend for books teaching style and they seem to come from the least traditional among the bunch; Skip has a tutorial out as well. Great player, great rule breaker.
I wonder about the overall gentrification of ITM, everyone innovating in precisely the same ways, everyone going after very similar flutes, with very similar sounds...

But I digress.. Sweet with that demitasse?

Gordon

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:33 pm

the idea of a smaller holed flute with a darker sound,
very responsive, not a Pratten or a honker,
but still capable of real volume,
seems to be catching on. I would
like to play one. Best

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 8:58 pm

I'd love to try Grey's flute or Terry's copy. I usually go on record defending Ralph Sweet and i do think his flutes are generally under-rated, but it annoys me the way he goes for claiming all sorts of ancestry for that flute. It's a Firth&Pond model, influenced by Prowse, Rudall and Rose. Throw in a couple more names, and this could be the Universal Flute. "The embouchure, derived from the Firth-Pond Rudall and Rose Model, and a bore from measurements on several Rudal & Rose style flutes." Now, what the hell does this mean?

It reminds me of his traverso, "modeled after several antique flutes in our collection". Yeah, i'm sure it is, but is this the best way to make a flute?

He claims it plays easily up to third octave B. If this is true, that could be a good flute for playing the Classical orchestral repertory (Beethoven, etc).

I haven't played the flute, and for all i know, it could be a great one. I'm not buying flutes right now

, but if i come across one, i'll definitely try it and let you know what i think.

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 9:05 pm

jim stone wrote:the idea of a smaller holed flute with a darker sound,
very responsive, not a Pratten or a honker,
but still capable of real volume,
seems to be catching on. I would
like to play one. Best

My C. A. Grenser traverso by Rod Cameron, is doing this for me. I bet this is true of many late-model traversos. The Bresan model by Rod has an even more powerful voice, but it's only in A=390 or A=415. From what i read in oldflutes.com, a good French 6-key or maybe a Meyer (German), would be another interesting way to get this kind of sound. If i read right, the American flutes like Firth&Pond descend from the German models.

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 9:05 pm

[sorry, duplicate post; deleted.]

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:11 am

Both my old 8 keys (Eb and D) are capable of pretty good volume. They won`t break windows like my Lehart would but still they will play loud. What I like about them is their controlability. Their voice and timber can be infinitly varied to express what ever it is you are trying to say. Not to mention keys are just to much fun. Heck my Dixon rosewood has pretty small holes and that thing will blast and it doesn`t even have a lined head. But again it is capable of infinite expression from the quitest wisper to a reedy rore. Maybe it is the versitility of these older smaller holed flutes that makes them so desireable. I don`t know but I do know I like them and now that the Lehart is gone I get to get one more even older

Tom

herbivore12 · Post by **herbivore12** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 2:28 am

Gordon wrote:Well, that was a quick topic changer, Stuart, but I agree with you. There's a growing trend for books teaching style and they seem to come from the least traditional among the bunch; Skip has a tutorial out as well. Great player, great rule breaker.
I wonder about the overall gentrification of ITM, everyone innovating in precisely the same ways, everyone going after very similar flutes, with very similar sounds...

Gordon and Stuart have a valid concern here, I think, but it's probably also worth noting that Grey Larsen's book (what I've been able to read thus far, anyway) seems more designed to teach sound fundamental skills than to advocate, or even suggest, a particular style. I suppose the danger is that people may hear the recordings on the accompanying CD and try to play the tunes just as Grey does, or that they'll learn the basics and then apply them as-is to the tunes thereafter, rather than develop their own style or becoming fluent in a traditional regional style. From what I've been able to read of Grey's book so far, though, he's been pretty careful to state overtly that the student should listen to many other players and develop their style through listening, which is pretty good advice for anyone. I think he makes it clear that his exercises are to help develop technique, and are not themselves a road to The Music. (I suppose this may change deeper in the book, but I haven't seen him pushing his particular style so far.)

I don't think Gordon or Stuart were making this accusation at all, but just wanted to make it clear to others who might be reading that I don't think Grey's book will only teach you to play like Grey, unless you choose *not* to follow the best advice in the book and elsewhere, which is to listen to lots of others play and learn from older/better players. Foor what it's worth, the very first linde of the first chapter of the book is, in all caps: 'SEEK OUT THE OLDER PLAYERS', and the first page discusses the importance of listening -- 'the key to all insight is listening' -- and of weaning oneself away from written, definitive versions of tunes. One hopes that people will use Grey's transcriptions and exercises as a tool to develop their own styles, and not to have one handed to them.

I'm with Stuart in that, though I find Grey's style interesting, unique, and enjoyable, he isn't my ideal, nor someone I'd point to as an example of "really traditional" fluting. I think, though, that he may well have some good advice for learning the technique, and good tips on what to listen for and what you're hearing when you're listening to others play, which are good skills to learn. I hope that if pupils take his mesage to heart, that there won't be a world full of Grey clones. I guess the lazier may strive to have a style handed to them, and Grey's would be convenient as it's there in the book and the CDs, but I'm not sure that people who take that path will be the ones who really drive or influence the tradition. I hope not, anyway.

On the other hand, if someone has a pill I can take that'll make me sound just like, say, Conal O'Grada, or Matt Molloy, or Harry Bradley, or even a blend of two or three of the above, send me a PM, will ya?

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 8:43 am

Exactly right, Herbivore -- not what I (or Stuart, I think) were saying. Grey Larson's book/CD seems to have a lot to offer, as does (I'm sure) Skips, who certainly has and knows plenty to teach anyone who might want to learn.
It was just an observation, really.. I tend to avoid "how-to" books in general, especially in the case of what is a fairly open question, how does one play pure-drop Irish music? If you want to play like the men you mentioned, listen to them constantly, learn a few tunes from them (Conal even has his web lessons)... It'll take some time, but they'll show up in your style, eventually, to be sure.
Gordon

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:11 am

I actually bought Grey's book mainly for the read (history and blah blah) and to see what's in it. My only beef with it is that you have to read too much of it to figure out his notation system: I think he should have had Mel Bay put an index in just on the ornamentation-notation scheme. I lot of it's self-explanatory, I suppose, but the crans-long crans-cut crans or whatever isn't obvious. Eh.

I went right to the back to see how he transcribed stuff I'd heard, just to figure out the system. Actually, the only other potential negative is that I think it would have been nice for them to get permission to reproduce (on the CDs) the tunes he transcribed in the back. Some of the recordings are pretty obscure, and it is an aural tradition. And it's not like he transcribed full sets of music, but rather, only one tune from whatever source. I don't know the nitty-gritty of rights-getting, obviously.

What the HECK is this thread supposed to be about, anyway? I wonder if I shouldn't just start my own thread of "Deep Thoughts with Stuart" or something, so that people could just ignore my whole thread and not have to weed out all my OT posts.

Stuart

herbivore12 · Post by **herbivore12** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:14 am

Gordon wrote: If you want to play like the men you mentioned, listen to them constantly, learn a few tunes from them (Conal even has his web lessons)... It'll take some time, but they'll show up in your style, eventually, to be sure.
Gordon

Yep. Having been laid off a few months ago has left me with more practice time than I've had for years, so the last few months have been filled with lots of listening and learning tunes; having a couple hours, as opposed to minutes, each day to woodshed this stuff works wonders, both for the ear (more time to listen more attentively) and the technique.

Since no one has come forward with an offer of the magic pill I mentioned: anyone have a job they need filled? (The extra practice time is great for the flute playing, but bad -- very bad -- for the bank account. Oy. . .)

Dana · Post by **Dana** » Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:59 pm

Back to the original topic (the new Sweet flute). Have none of you played one of these flutes? They look intriguing.