What do you think about people who perform traditional music (in pub sessions, for example)? Should they strive for perfection? Or should they just relax and have fun playing and to hell with accuracy and musicianship (and the people who may be listening)?
Good question Although I don't see that the options have to be as clearly defined as that. I'd say you do the best you can with the instruments, talent, experience etc that you and your fellow musicians have. In my experience, the people listening have a better time with musicians who *are* relaxing and having fun that they do with pedants who wince every time they hit a wrong note. And for me the way to relax and have fun is to make sure yr fellow musicians and your audience are enjoying the gig as much as you are.
Is perfection the only way for the audience to enjoy the show? If so then they aren't my kind of audience, and it isn't my kind of gig. For the record, I've been an amateur or semi-pro musician of one kind or another for about 30 years. That doesn't mean I'm right, it just means I've thought about it for a while...
I think there's a huge difference between the real cheapies and the next step up (Dixons and the like). But reliability is a big part of it. I really like the sound I get from my Generations - but except for a single Eb that was good right out of the box, I've had to tweek every other one I own to get them to sound decent.
But with a high end whistle, you're paying for 3 things: Tone, Reliabilty,and Craftmanship. And Craftmanship is probably the most expensive part of the equation.
I've had a chance to play Abells, Copelands, and Burkes - wonderful whistles all, and they SOUND wonderful. But after hearing Tony Higgens play a couple of tunes on his Blackwood Bb (Abell, I think) I asked him to play them on my tweeked Generation Bb. He did sound a touch better on the Abell - but he sounded awfully good on the Generation, too.
Bill Whedon sold me my Serpent F for half-price ($65) (special circumstance - like a lot of other board members, I'd bought tickets in a charity raffle he was running). If something happened to it, I would pay full price in a heartbeat to replace it - of all the whistles I own it's my hands-down favorite.
But after playing my new Syn D obsessively for a day, ($38 from Gaelic Crossings) I don't think it suffers at all in comparison to a Burke (I don't think Burkes are overpriced, either - I just don't know why Erle is selling Syns so cheaply). But after playing them side by side, I don't think my Syn is a better whistle than either of my Serpent Pollys ($20 in the latest "Brassy Polly" incarnation) - different, sure - Syns are pretty pure, Pollys have a "rough" sound - but not better.
Why does the Syn cost more? Materials and time - the metal used in the Syn costs a touch more, and takes longer to machine. Bill has come up with an amazingly cheap way to build good whistles, and is willing to sell them for a reasonable price. (His metal D whistles cost several times as much - and aren't overpriced).
I don't think you can really go wrong with any of the high-end whistles, though you should try to decide what you're looking for before ordering. Pure tone? Rough/"traditional" sound? Finely machined appearance? Funky? Metal? Wood? Worst case, you can probably sell it for close to what you paid for it if you decide it doesn't suit your particular taste.
What will I buy next? Probably a Serpent A whistle. And depending on how I come down on "to flute, or not to flute" either a Casey Burns folk flute or an Overton low D. And maybe a Jerry F. tweeked Shaw for the Ren Faire, and C and Bb tubes for my Syn, and maybe a Brassy Polly Eb . . .
But if I had to be reduced to ONE, and ONLY one, D whistle I'd be torn between the Serpent and the Syn. Quite honestly, I'd probably come down in favor of the Serpent (a whistle I wasn't sure I even *liked* the first day I had it - I had to grow into it)- but it would be a close call.
Last edited by DCrom on Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
But if I had to be reduced to ONE, and ONLY one, D whistle I'd be torn between the Serpent and the Syn. Quite honestly, I'd probably come down in favor of the Serpent (a whistle I wasn't sure I even *liked* the first day I had it - I had to grow into it)- but it would be a close call.
Good to see you like Bills Whistles , I to have a couple of them and I like to have a wee tuney on them often
I sat right next to another whistle player at The Whistle Shop's slow session recently and he swore that my Clarke Meg ($3.00) sounded exactly like his Burke Brass whistle.
Do what you're comfortable with. There's no right or wrong answer.
And a rovin’ a rovin’ a rovin’ I’ll go for a pair of brown eyes
Bodhran Diddley wrote:I sat right next to another whistle player at The Whistle Shop's slow session recently and he swore that my Clarke Meg ($3.00) sounded exactly like his Burke Brass whistle.
Ah, the gift of blarney, I love it! I'd like to meet this guy.
But if I had to be reduced to ONE, and ONLY one, D whistle I'd be torn between the Serpent and the Syn. Quite honestly, I'd probably come down in favor of the Serpent (a whistle I wasn't sure I even *liked* the first day I had it - I had to grow into it)- but it would be a close call.
Good to see you like Bills Whistles , I to have a couple of them and I like to have a wee tuney on them often
Eek! I forgot to throw an Alba Q1 into the whistle lust list!
Last edited by DCrom on Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bodhran Diddley wrote:I sat right next to another whistle player at The Whistle Shop's slow session recently and he swore that my Clarke Meg ($3.00) sounded exactly like his Burke Brass whistle.
Ah, the gift of blarney, I love it! I'd like to meet this guy.
There's some truth to it, though. I had a great Sweetone and a Burke brass pro (i don't have either, anymore). The difference between the Sweetone and the Burke was minimal, basically the Sweetone was a little more breathy in the low notes than the Burke. Despite the different shapes, both are basically sweet sounding and in-tune whistles. But i bet Burkes are a lot more consitently good than Sweetones.
On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog!
--Wellsprings--
BillChin wrote:For some other instruments, $1000+ is entry level for a serious student and "nice" is a corresponding multiple of that.
Bill's absolutely right. My primary instrument (can I say this here) is fiddle. While a starter instrument can be found for $100-300, you've got to drop at least $2000 for a decent quality acoustic violin. Then you've got your bow (a good quality bow will drop you $300+).
And I'm not even talking hand-made or vintage instruments!
I love the whistles for their versatility (took two on our Junior High Youth retreat last weekend in 10 degree weather. Wouldn't dream of bringing my fiddle or guitar), and price.
"Put": the act of placing something in a specific spot.
"Putt": the vain attempt to do the same thing.
Mainly, it's all been said...
If I had to pick one reason for spending more money, I'd say reliability/ease of play. I put my old 1976 Generation D against Jerry Freeman's tweaked Gen D to see the essential differences. The key thing that sold me on Jerry's was the stability of the tone. You could blow hard or soft and get a change in volume, not a change in octaves (unless you intended to). For a beginner trying to learn a tune, develop some rhythm, fight against their lack of breath control, etc, why make it more difficult than necessary by playing a cheapo that squawks and squeaks or changes octaves while you're beating your brains out trying to get a simple melody out and not feel like a dope. When you get really good, I'm sure it makes far less difference what instrument you play.
As far as tone issues, it becomes a matter of taste. If you want 'authentic,' go for the cheap Generation. It's not the only option available with the variety of materials and intentional design out there. This is not a matter of 'quality' or being better than a different instrument. It's simply a matter of what sounds good to your ear. That's why I don't like to chime in much with recommendations on what to buy. I try to just describe what I hear and let the person decide if that sounds preferable.
I've met a good handful of C&Fers and they all know I own a ridiculous number of expensive whistles. Most, I bought without having played or heard played before purchase. Some, I've been delighted with, others, though I don't find fault with their workmanship, aesthetics, or design, I find don't suit me and I'll get around to selling them one of these days. Beware, also, that some expensive whistles have quirks that may annoy some people.
A side note is the Abell blackwood Bb, in my opinion, does not in any way, sound 'traditional' to me, but the distinctive tone it has totally captivates me when I'm playing it. It may or may not sound that interesting to someone else listening or not that much nicer than a Generation Bb, but hey, I sure like it and don't regret paying out for it.
Tony
http://tinwhistletunes.com/clipssnip/newspage.htm Officially, the government uses the term “flap,” describing it as “a condition, a situation or a state of being, of a group of persons, characterized by an advanced degree of confusion that has not quite reached panic proportions.”
TonyHiggins wrote:A side note is the Abell blackwood Bb, in my opinion, does not in any way, sound 'traditional' to me, but the distinctive tone it has totally captivates me when I'm playing it. It may or may not sound that interesting to someone else listening or not that much nicer than a Generation Bb, but hey, I sure like it and don't regret paying out for it.
Tony
Didn't mean to imply that - it's a lovely whistle, and if I owned it I doubt if I'd ever pick up the Generation, either. Wonderful craftmanship, feels marvelous to hold, and it *does* sound completely different, and better, than a standard Generation.
But the point was you were able to sound pretty darn good on a standard Generation Bb with only minimal tweeks. And were we both to play the same tune, me on your Abell and you on my Generation, I have no illusions which of us would sound better.
Heck, I sound far better on a Sweetone now than I would have on a Burke or Abell a year ago. Top-flight instruments are a joy to own and play, but skill counts far more. I thought MurphyStout souded pretty good on the few whistle pieces he played (rather than using his flute) - wasn't he using a Walton's?
Peter Laban wrote:I have yet to find the whistle that justifies for me a fifteen to twentyfive fold price increase by yielding an even remotely comparable increase in sound quality...
I agree that it's always an individual choice/preference. However, I don't think one should decide against an "expensive" whistle just because the increase in sound quality is not exactly commensurate with the increase in price. Indeed, this almost never will be the case as one moves to higher quality instruments. For example, I doubt a $40,000 Martin D-28 guitar from the 1930's is 20 times better sounding than the newer Martin HD-28V (which is the newer copy of the 30's D-28) which sells for about $2K. However, the newer guitar WILL NOT sound like the 30's guitar, so if you want that sound, you've got to pay for it. For many that increase in price is not worth it, but for some it is. By the same token, a $5 Generation will not sound like a Rose or a Copeland, etc. so if thats what you want, you get that. If you prefer the sound of the Generation (which some do), then your decision is easy!
Due to technical problems [lightning blew the modem] I am checking int very irregularly at the minute.
Just to elaborate, I don't think a twenty fold price increase should auromatically bring a twenty fold incraese in the quality, still if I can do what ever I am looking for on a whistle that cost a fiver I tend to prefer that to one that cost twenty times that and is still an ugly looker.
I am not into wooden whistles, but I can imagine if you are a really nicely made one is a reason to buy one, as metal whistles go, I don't find Burkes or Sindts particularly pleasing to the eye, even if they are well made they are ugly yokes.
For the moment I have gone out of using the Sindt at all, I every now and again grow very tired of the sheer blandness of it. I am now taking the Jerry tweak out to play but any of my generations would do as well. Which works fine for me What I really meant to say initially was that given the choice there is little incentive for me to buy an expensive whistle.
Although I don't see that the options have to be as clearly defined as that. I'd say you do the best you can with the instruments, talent, experience etc that you and your fellow musicians have. In my experience, the people listening have a better time with musicians who *are* relaxing and having fun that they do with pedants who wince every time they hit a wrong note. And for me the way to relax and have fun is to make sure yr fellow musicians and your audience are enjoying the gig as much as you are.
, I to have a couple of them and I like to have a wee tuney on them often 
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