Mongoose of Righteousness wrote:I suppose in the broadest sense ITM is art. It's art in the way that cooking is art. But it's not art in the way that sculpting granite is art.
There are some great musicians here on C&F and Peter is one of them, and I respect his opinion. I just happen not to agree. I think it's the nature of the artisan to view his work as art, especially when he gets to be very very good at it.
Putting a few chirpy bits into a tune is wonderful, but (as they say) IS IT ART?
(For the record, I've been playing for 2 years and I suck at it.)
I'd say the playing of Willie Clancy, Tommy Peoples, or Seamus Ennis is art in the way that the playing of Paganini, Glenn Gould, or Pablo Casals is art. If you listen to the masters of Irish traditional music you'll find depth of expression, creativity, and technical mastery, just as you would in classical music (or sculpting, writing, choroegraphy). There are differences between traditional music and classical music, of course; but one being art and the other not being art is not one of the differences.
I won't go on, because if for you it's about "putting chirpy bits into a tune", you haven't lived.
Well, you do mean it, so I'll express my
opinion which is that ITM is an artform,
pure and simple,
and ornamenting is an art.
But I don't see ITM as
self-consciously an artform,
(Vladimir Horowitz and
the New York Philharmonic
in tuxedos),
it isn't 'high brow' art, but
largely of the people.
No accident, however, that
some of the most beautiful
melodies in classical music
come from folk music. Best
I recently saw a DVD of Glenn Gould performing
the Goldberg Variations, by the way,
shortly before he died. It was so beautiful
that it was demonic, and Gould
was plainly playing from some
distant holy place. What a species! Best
enjoyed the comment jim stone! made good sense in toning things down abit! p.s. one thing i learned pretty early on is that, at times grace notes should be used sparingly. if not, sometimes the "tunes"can get lost in there!
If you discover you have a "perfect" Low Whistle, don't sell it. Trust me, I know! If it's close to perfection, don't sell it. Trust me, I know! If you feel that it's difficult to adjust to but you still feel a deep connection to it, don't sell it. Just give it to me!!!
It's impossible for someone to express themselves within a particular art form if they don't have a strong grasp of the particular, unique, components used to express that art. Picasso's palate consisted of the same paints and brushes available to beginners - the art lay in how he assembled lines and colors anyone could have painted, as basic components. It's very much the same with ornaments, IMHO. Just throwing in a few twidly bits is the stuff for isolated beginners' unappreciative ears. Some will listen and learn enough to appreciate a complexity performed so proficiently, and naturally, that it appears simple enough anyone should be able to do it. Getting the mechanics of ornamentation is necessary skill, but one that hardly shows up on the radar, compared to mastery demonstrated by great players who find innovative ways, and places, to use them within the tradition. IMO it's necessary - essential - for players' listening skills to develop beyond our playing skills.
As to the discussion about whether ITM is art: Art is in the eye of the beholder, and someone who doesn't, or can't, appreciate/recognize art does not threaten the art. They just miss out on it. They just hear someone playing music, or observe that someone painted something. We all appreciate different things in varied degrees. But no one gets to mandate what is another man's art. Expressing the opinion that ITM is NOT art on a site frequented by those in pursuit of mastering it is a guaranteed argument. So. . .put me down in the "yes it damn sure is, I'm willing to fight about it, and anyone who disagrees simply doesn't have a firm grasp of the music" column.
For the record, I think Mongoose is WAY OFF! Not only is any kind of music an art form, but rolls and cuts and all the other ornamentation in ITM has NOTHING to do with not hitting the right notes. That is ridiculous. It's part of the style and it's done, sometimes to excess but often for a positive effect, on purpose.
But the qualitfication that you've been playing for two years and still suck does shed some light on your opinion.
I admit I'm no genius at this music, either on whistle or U-Pipes, but I've been around it since I was born and I love it. Run a poll back in Ireland and you'll find most people agree that it's got some bright spots, but most of it is "diddly-die-dee-die". If ITM is art, it's art in the way The Blues is art. When someone tells me I haven't lived because I don't dig the chirpy bits in ITM I have to chuckle. Come off your high horses guys. "I'ts FOLK music, d*mm*t."
Tell us something.: I'm a New York native who gradually slid west and landed in the Phoenix area. I like riding on the back seat of a tandem bicycle. I like dogs and have three of them. I am a sometime actor and an all the time teacher, husband, and dad.
Mongoose of Righteousness wrote:If ITM is art, it's art in the way The Blues is art.
I'm a big fan of classical, baroque, jazz, rock and roll, early American folk, ITM and most especially blues. To me, every form of music holds the potential to be an art form. Here's a favorite quote:
"Art, and, above all, music, has a fundamental function, which is to catalyze the sublimation that it can bring about through all means of expression. It must aim through fixations which are landmarks, to draw towards a total exaltation in which the individual mingles, losing his consciousness in a truth immediate, rare, enormous, and perfect. If a work of art succeeds in this undertaking even for a single moment, it attains its goal."
Iannis Xenakis
For me, Robert Johnson, John Coltrane, Jimi Hendrix and yes, even Mary Bergin qualify. If you're denigrating ITM and the blues as art forms, then I henceforth must dub you Mongoose of Wrongteousness.
Mongoose, what is your definition of "Art"? To me, Art is communicating. If you have something important to say, and you say it well, that is Art. The medium you use is irrelevant. Of course some mediums are more suited to saying some things than others, but in the hands of a master with something important to say, the medium is almost irrelevant.
Music is suited towards communicating some things that words cannot. Any good traditional music has a depth of humanity that communicates something to those who can listen. It has a solid base that's survived centuries and transcends the ego and pretentiousness of much "serious" art.
Still, if it communicates nothing to you, fair enough. But don't necessarily assume that's because there's no message there.
If ITM is art, it's art in the way The Blues is art.
Right, and blues is an art form.
When you have an activity that means to produce something
the chief value of which is aesthetic (it's beautiful, moving,
entrancing, makes you wanna dance), and the activity
has a distinctive form (e.g. jigs, reels, airs) and technicques
for making what it produces pleasing (e.g. ornamentation),
that's an art form pure and simple. The cinema,
the theater, painting, sculpting, the blues,
ITM, are all art forms for this reason.
What's going on, I think, is that you've got
the idea of an art form pumped up to
'serious, high brow, self consciously artsy'
art form. That's why your friend's joke
'This isn't an Art Form' made sense.
She's saying: 'This isn't a serious, high
brow, self consciously artsy thing we're
doing, we can relax.'
But, the point is, not all art forms are
serious, high brow, and self consciously
artsy. Nobody who disagrees with you
is on a high horse. You're placing
the idea of an art form on a pedestal.
By the way there is a cluster of interesting
concepts here. When the chief value of the product
isn't its aesthetic features, but its utility,
even though it's meant to have aesthetic
features, we call the activity a craft,
not an art form--so furniture making,
musical instrument making are crafts,
pottery is (typcially) a craft, weaving...
But music, the cinema, etc isn't something
you can eat or wear or sit on or live in...
Nonetheless we say that crafts often involve
an art--there's an art to flute making, say.
By which we mean something like this: there
is no way to mechanically crank out a successful
product, anymore than one can mechanically
crank out a great painting--it takes an understanding
that perhaps surpasses the artisan's ability to
express or formulate it.
By the way, most art in any art form is bad art.
Most paintings done by most painters, most of whom
are amateurs, are failures; nonetheless they're
paintings (bad paintings), therefore art works
(bad artworks). But it does seem to be part
of our idea of an art form that it can
produce wonderful things, and this, of course,
ITM, does.
Finally, low brow art forms tend to define themselves
by distinguishing themselves from high brow
art forms. Folk musicians often do this:
in tuning guitars we used to joke 'Close enough
for folk music!' The ambience of the blues is
down, dirty, uneducated and oppressed,
you don't talk a certain language--B. B. King
isn't going to say in the middle of a set: 'The
aesthetics of the last number were extraordinary!'
But, the whole point is, that doesn't mean
they weren't. Nor would he end the set by
saying: 'Thanks, folks. I'm glad you enjoy this
art form.' But that doesn't mean it isn't one.
That's the chief difference between us, I think: you're thinking
of an art form as something self-consciously artsy,
we're not. Best
Mongoose of Righteousness wrote: Run a poll back in Ireland and you'll find most people agree that it's got some bright spots, but most of it is "diddly-die-dee-die". "I'ts FOLK music, d*mm*t."
MR.
My dear Mongoose I hope that after another few years you will be able to look back on these comments and cringe!
Mongoose of Righteousness wrote: Run a poll back in Ireland and you'll find most people agree that it's got some bright spots, but most of it is "diddly-die-dee-die".
Actually, I think I agree with that. And if your run a poll in America, most would agree that Beethoven or Shakespeare is boring, old-fashioned, and useless. And most would agree that American folk music has a few fun tunes, but is mostly corny and stupid.
jim stone wrote:If ITM is art, it's art in the way The Blues is art.
Right, and blues is an art form.
When you have an activity that means to produce something
the chief value of which is aesthetic (it's beautiful, moving,
entrancing, makes you wanna dance), and the activity
has a distinctive form (e.g. jigs, reels, airs) and technicques
for making what it produces pleasing (e.g. ornamentation),
that's an art form pure and simple. The cinema,
the theater, painting, sculpting, the blues,
ITM, are all art forms for this reason.
...
Beautifully stated, Jim--the whole thing.
Clear and concise, well-reasoned and well-stated.
Cool!
Mike Wright
"When an idea is wanting, a word can always be found to take its place."
--Goethe
