Is There Something About G (Alto) Whistles?

[PhilO]

A question perhaps aimed best at makers. I've noticed that my very favorite whistles, those right at perfection, are G whistles across all makers and types. I've also noticed that it's particularly difficult to find C whistles at or near that level of perfection; indeed, historically, some of the best makers have had "holes" in their lines at that key, and some newer makers have more trouble than one would expect in extending their line from soprano D to C (which to the layman seems like it should not pose such difficulty).

For example, the two best whistles I've ever played (over an extended time of years and with respect to both tonal qualities and playability) are my O'Riordan G and Copeland G - and they are totally different end to end in all regards one from the other. The Overton G that I sold was also wonderful, but unnecessary for me in light of the other whistles. I also have very good Susato and Alba G whistles. The only exception was the worst whistle I've ever played - a very old Chieftain G (which Loren will I think attest to).

Soprano D is the staple and the standard for the music we play, and for these purposes, I consider the Low or tenor D at the other end (mirrors soprano D?) thereby completing the line of the most often played whistles. (Apologies to those who can play Low C, B or even A; I'm filled with admiration, awe and disbelief). Is G just an easier key to make "well" because it's about at the middle of this spectrum of whistles and because it is at that point where the tone becomes "haunting" yet is still "easy" to handle in terms of playability? Is the C just too close to the D so that it merely sounds almost he same but not as full somehow?

Or, is it just happenstance that I've found exceptional whistles in the key of G and prefer that key?

In any event, a Happy and Healthy New Year to you all!

Best,

PhilO

[Walden]

Yeah, G is a right good whistle, just like the equivalent F alto is a comparatively good rec***er.

[Talbert St. Claire]

phil, whistle's have different personality's! believe me when i say this:
it's all a matter of sheer practice and preference!!! some whistle's do
not set well with our "palate" while others tend to supply us with a certain
wonder and amazement! to compare at times in terms of good and bad is
at times difficult. keep it simple- just play them! we have a lot to learn
from them! all the best. -talbert at times we all think that we are
teaching the whistle. the whistle is really teaching us!!!!!

[Zubivka]

Right on, PhilO!

You aren't alone among us to feel this.

I read one interesting theory about this on some NA flute association site--remembering their most popular keys are alto F# and G, then A--relating it simply to ergonomics, like the flutes were made after human hands, before any seek of a precise tonality.

Same thing with recorders: the alto (F) is magic. But remember that it's a G whistle with a lower "foot" hole, as Walden just said.

Same for the Strathmann flute I just fell into: forget all the sax mechanism, and it plays just like an alto G whistle. For trad, I consider it a G, plus accidentals comfort. For jazz, it's of course an F, and for Breton a Bb...

Of course, it may have to do with G being a singing tone in our cultures.
Also, G fits even D tunes, being a fifth below the high whistle.

Still, I do believe that alto whistles generally (F to A, even Bb) rock when you discover them. I tend to believe it's relied to ergonomics--not only fingering but breath control, mouthpiece size, weight balance, etc.
They just don't happen to fall in the very strict criterions of ITM as scholarized by the pure-droppers (droppists? droppings???). Not that it stopped some true performing artists, like Lunasa :roll:

Now if it's the G tone that strikes you, then you're in trouble, man: next thing we know you'll acquire a big G flute...

[chas]

Phil, I do think that G is a good key, and many makers do it well. Have you ever tried a Burke G -- probably the opposite of the Copeland, a nice round pure tone, and a blast to play because it can give a delicate sound, but you can also really lay into it. I also agree that a good C is hard to come by -- I absolutely love my macassar Thin Weasel, and finally found a good metal C (Harper), but I have quite a few by makers I really respect that are just kind of bland.

OTOH it's also possible that G just speaks to you, as E speaks to me.

[raindog1970]

I've also noticed that it's particularly difficult to find C whistles at or near that level of perfection; indeed, historically, some of the best makers have had "holes" in their lines at that key, and some newer makers have more trouble than one would expect in extending their line from soprano D to C (which to the layman seems like it should not pose such difficulty).

The biggest problem is that most makers try to use the same diameter tube for C that they use for Eb and D... and even the manufacturers of cheapies know that this isn't best the way to go.
Following the example of mass-produced cheapies, it's best to make Eb and D from the same diameter tube, then make the C from a larger diameter tube, and maybe offer a wide bore D made from the larger tube.
My Eb and D whistles have an inside diameter of 0.469”, but I make my C and wide bore D whistles with a 0.546” inside diameter... makes all the difference in the world!

[Reyburnwhistles]

Phil, I'll take a shot at your question. For me the most important factor in creating a specific key is the bore. So if one is using standard (off the shelf) tubing for the bore then there are limitations as to what is available on the market. If one is creating their own bore (such as Michael Copeland and Pat O'Riordan or for that matter any of the makers boring their own wooden tubes) then the bore can be drilled or shall we say fitted more precisely to the key of the instrument. Those of us who are attempting to make sets (one head and multiple bodies) are sharing the same bore for multiple keys and therein lies the difficulty. The bore is either optimized for one of the keys or is somewhere in between and something has to suffer.

There is also the factor of the voicing which the maker determines based on the sound they are after and how this voicing interacts with the bore. So some makers instruments play as well as others (and thats the subjective part) but use a different bore and perhaps play louder or sweeter or whatever they choose their instrument to sound like.

I have found it easier to find a bore for the high whistles, for the tubing is more readily available in incremental sizes than the larger tubing for the low whistles. Of course sometimes the available bore works quite well for a given voicing and then you have those perfect instruments you are referring to.

Now the kicker is that all of this may work for some and not for others. For the one thing I have discovered is that the perfect whistle for one person is not acceptable for another.

I hope my perspective is helpful.
A happy new year to you all.

Ronaldo

[trisha]

G is indeed a magical key...high G whistles, well...need I say more, and Low Low G are unmanageable/unaffordable for most. So there we are, G on its own - a great whistle.

I agree with Zoob on alto whistles in general - F being my current favourite owing to a fairly recent affliction brought on by the arrival of an alto Yani saxophone (Eb of course :roll: ).

Re Low C...I have one of Stacey's new Q1's ( I don't like soprano Cs much). It fingers easily, blows easily, and plays quiet or just LOUD enough to fill in when the tenor sax is taking a break! Nice whistle.

Trisha

[Wombat]

Well I don't find any key more magical than any other although I suppose I do think of certain keys as having distinctive personalities on an instrument that's perfectly well-tempered. I have an Overton and Burke AlPro low G and love both. But I have an Overton and Grinter low F and love them both. It has never occured to me that the Gs sound better than the Fs.

I have noticed two things. Certainly, when the same head serves several tubes, the whistle might sound better with one tube than another. Second, particular makers seem to excel in certain keys and do less well in others. But the idea that Ds in general sound better than Ds simply isn't true in my experience. My Burke AlPro C is one of my favourite whistles, my AlPro D is good but not nearly as good. Again my Overton C is all I could ask of it.

[trisha]

Well I don't find any key more magical than any other although I suppose I do think of certain keys as having distinctive personalities on an instrument that's perfectly well-tempered. I have an Overton and Burke AlPro low G and love both. But I have an Overton and Grinter low F and love them both. It has never occured to me that the Gs sound better than the Fs.

I have noticed two things. Certainly, when the same head serves several tubes, the whistle might sound better with one tube than another. Second, particular makers seem to excel in certain keys and do less well in others. But the idea that Ds in general sound better than Ds simply isn't true in my experience. My Burke AlPro C is one of my favourite whistles, my AlPro D is good but not nearly as good. Again my Overton C is all I could ask of it.

So we agree pretty much. I have an Overton G, and a Grinter F reaching these shores soon ( I also have a Burke AlPro F which is a nice whistle). And I agree on the tube sets although to some extent I tend to get stuck with each in one set up so get to know it better than it's other-tube set up so that might be a factor at my stage of the learning curve.

Some people just aren't keen on solo playing of high whistles...I do however play my D Sweet and Silkstone D+ in the band because they cut through better it seems but haven't a high C I like enough (so play Low C mostly), also Ds/Eb in other set ups with other instruments.

Trisha

[Dictyranger]

Piggybacking...

'Tis the season to have some money burning a hole in my pocket, so I thought I'd treat myself to a lower-key whistle. My first thought was to pick up a low D and just go ahead and learn piper's grip, but I've also gotten a suggestion to try an alto whistle first. I'm still debating both possibilities.

Fortunately, I have a good whistle shop (Andy's Front Hall) local to me, so I can go in and test-drive a couple of whistles before buying. If I do decide on an alto whistle, especially due to handbreadth/wind requirement issues, should I go with an A or a G?

I know Planxty Irwin sounds good in both D and G, but how versatile are these whistles in general? An A whistle can also be played in D, natch, but (check me if I'm wrong on this) it would then have the same range and tone as a soprano D whistle, so what's the point?

Thanks in advance for any advice, folks.

[msheldon]

An A whistle can also be played in D, natch, but (check me if I'm wrong on this) it would then have the same range and tone as a soprano D whistle, so what's the point?

Yes and no. If you play the same tune in the same key, yes it's the same notes. However, the tonal characteristics do change a bit. Remember that the lowest (bell) note can often be a little weak compared to the others. By starting midway up, that's no longer a factor. However, if the tun goes very high, you may be reaching some of the less stable notes on the lower whistle.

A good reason for playing a tune in D on an A whistle is because the tune goes below the bottom D. Normally, you'd just transcribe it up to G, but if you're playing with others, that may not be an option.

Thus, the two primary reasons for playing on other than a D whistle are either because you're playing with others who are playing in those keys, or you just prefer it in that key. There are quite a number of tunes, usually airs, that I like to play in alternate keys, usually F.

[msheldon]

I like G whistles and all, but actually the key I really prefer is F. Maybe it's from listening to too much Lunasa... Nah, no such thing.

[Wombat]

So we agree pretty much. I have an Overton G, and a Grinter F reaching these shores soon ( I also have a Burke AlPro F which is a nice whistle). And I agree on the tube sets although to some extent I tend to get stuck with each in one set up so get to know it better than it's other-tube set up so that might be a factor at my stage of the learning curve.

Some people just aren't keen on solo playing of high whistles...I do however play my D Sweet and Silkstone D+ in the band because they cut through better it seems but haven't a high C I like enough (so play Low C mostly), also Ds/Eb in other set ups with other instruments.

Trisha

We certainly do agree. I think you're going to enjoy the Overton and Grinter.

It might take a bit of looking, but there are good whistles in every key I would think. I'd trust Overton in any key and Burke.

[Walden]

But the idea that Ds in general sound better than Ds simply isn't true in my experience.

I think that's the most agreeable thing anyone's ever said. We can all get behind Wombat on this matter!



Happy new year, Wombat. I hope you have a good one.