A worthwhile endeavour?

EnjyCellist · Post by **EnjyCellist** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:45 pm

Hi. I'm new to this forum, and new to . . . er, Irish fluting entirely. I've been admiring the Irish flute for about two years now, and I was wondering how long it would take me to learn it. I've got a stable music background, piano and strings, but absoltuely no experience with wind instruments. I don't want to be up to virtuoso quality or anything, just enough to enjoy it, maybe do a little melody in church every once in awhile, that type of thing. I wouldn't be buying an expensive flute, and I probably wouldn't take very many lessons.

So I guess my question is, is it worth it to buy a flute and see what I can accomplish on my own?

JessieK · Post by **JessieK** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:48 pm

Yes, it's absolutely worth it. You will feel competent in a year or two, and you can get really good in a couple of years after that. Welcome.

Blackbeer · Post by **Blackbeer** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:27 pm

I totaly agree with JessieK on this question. It is apsalutly worth it. I started a year ago and though it was a monumental struggle I now play for hours a day. It is like a permanent smile. Just dive in. You don`t have to spend a lot of money on a first flute but you do have to study the choices and you will find that everyone on this forum has something to say about that. Don`t get discouraged if it seems you are getting knowwhere. You will be holding in your hands the most expressive instrument know to man. It takes a little dedication to share in that fanamina. By the way welcome to this den of iniquidy.

Tom

PS. of course if you take up the flute you will loose the ability to spell

IDAwHOa · Post by **IDAwHOa** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:33 pm

[quote="Blackbeer"]You don`t have to spend a lot of money on a first flute but you do have to study the choices and you will find that everyone on this forum has something to say about that.[quote]

Here is the flute I bought for my wife:

http://www.caseyburnsflutes.com/ff.php

Here is a thread about it that includes a review:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=16316

Jump on in, the music is fine!

EnjyCellist · Post by **EnjyCellist** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:00 pm

Thanks for all the advice. Do you really recommend the style without the keys? As I read the review and product description, though, I'm really impressed. That seems like a good instrument.

You mentioned it taking one to two years for fluency. How much time does that entail per day? Just a rough guess. I've always taken readily to new instruments, but like I said, I don't have much experience with winds.

Edit: By the way, what's the difference between a "folk flute" and an "Irish flute?"

Second edit: I guess it's time to expose my naivete. I can't hide it much longer. In the pictures I see of these flutes, there's the hole one blows into (I'm sure that has a technical name, if someone will enlighten me), and then six or eight more holes to cover with one's fingers. So can you play in all keys, and what's the range for the flutes?

You will be holding in your hands the most expressive instrument know to man.

I already own one of those, but I call it a c-e-l-l-o.

of course if you take up the flute you will loose the ability to spell

That's ok; I'm genetically pre-indisposed to spelling, anyway.

msheldon · Post by **msheldon** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 3:48 pm

EnjyCellist wrote:Thanks for all the advice. Do you really recommend the style without the keys?

Yup.

Among other things, fully-keyed wooden flutes from reputable makers are *very* expensive, generally $1,800-$3,000 or more. Additionally, there's often a 1-3 year wait for them.

Silver Boehm-system flutes can be had for significantly less. I've got a very nice one I picked up on Ebay for $500.

But, for Irish-style music, the keyless wooden flute reigns supreme. These are in the key of D, and will play a second major in G. This is plenty sufficient, since most Irish music is written in one of those two major keys. There are a couple of makers who make inexpensive flutes well-suited for beginners. Casey Burns has just recently started offering his beginner's flute, which is very well thought of. And Sweetheart has a very nice, inexpensive wooden flute as well. I've been very happy with my Sweetheart rosewood flute.

BillG · Post by **BillG** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:52 pm

you ask "folk flute - Irish flute" but there is very little difference between the two as both are "folk" music. Keys are seldom used in the majority of Irish and other folk music. The keys of D and G have already been mentioned with their relative minors.

The blow hole, embouchure hole, is at the top end. The next 6 holes are the finger holes or notes played when covered, uncovered or half covered (cross fingering for sharps and flats). The bottom two holes are vent type and not covered. Vestiges of C and Bb keys.

All holes covered with mild wind is low D. As the holes are uncovered from the bottom to the top you proceed up the scale: D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#. This is repeated for the second octave with stronger breath control or tighter lip control.

Go for it - you'll love it as your second most emotional input instrument.

BillG

EnjyCellist · Post by **EnjyCellist** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:24 pm

Ok, that clears some things up. How difficult is it to acheive the second octave? Does it involve any more tuning than the first octave? How difficult is it to make sound anyway? I've done a little clarinet (and by that I mean I can barely play a full octave scale), but I have /no/ experience with the flute.

By the way, what is a "chiff and fipple?"

TerryB · Post by **TerryB** » Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:16 pm

Hi Enjy,

I agree with the others that you should definitely pursue the Irish flute. The instrument can be a bit frustrating in the beginning, but it offers a great deal of pleasure even to those of us who still have a long way to go to proficiency.

Most of the basic questions about developing your embouchure, attaining the second octave, etc., have enjoyed lengthy discussions previously and can be accessed by a search of this forum. You have received and will receive a lot of great guidance from this group, although some of the issues, especially regarding your embouchure, are difficult to describe in words. If you can find someone locally who plays the Irish flute to help you in this area, that would probably boost your progress considerably. A Boehm flute teacher would help as well, but the approach to the Boehm/silver/concert flute is not quite the same.

A great new book on Irish flute and whistle by Grey Larsen has just been published by Mel Bay (The Essential Guide to Irish Flute and Tin Whistle). This book would be a wonderful resource for you.

I don't want to hijack your thread, but could I reverse your question? What do you think about a middle-aged amateur tackling the cello? As with your expressed aspirations for the flute, I don't expect to attain a high level of expertise, just enjoy that other highly expressive instrument.

Please feel free to email me if you want to keep this question from cluttering up your initial information-gathering on the Irish flute.

All the best,

Terry

Wombat · Post by **Wombat** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 4:18 am

EnjyCellist wrote:
Edit: By the way, what's the difference between a "folk flute" and an "Irish flute?"

I think you might be refering here to differently named flutes on Casey Burns website. If that's the case, then the short answer is: a few hundred dollars and a bit of service, design complexity and finishing. A Burns Irish flute is a serious instrument that you would regard as being of performance quality. A folk flute is an entry level instrument designed to get you started but not intended to be the instrument you would want to play for the rest of your life once you become proficient.

Now, only someone who had tried both would be able to tell you how much you would be missing going for the folk flute. What's more, an entry level model by one maker might well be a better instrument than a professional level model by another, lesser, maker.

EnjyCellist · Post by **EnjyCellist** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 10:25 am

Wombat - thanks. That does clear some things up. If anyone has played both, it would be nice to know what they thought, as far as differences.

TerryB - I'll answer here - I don't mind. From what I've gathered, one can enjoy the Irish flute from the beginning. In the reviews of the Casey Burns folk flute, it was repeatedly mentioned that it sounded beautiful really from the beginning. With the cello . . . well, it can be a different story. I'm not entirely sure how to answer this, because it can go both ways. If you practice a little bit each day, buy a cheap cello, try to learn on your own, well . . . it's going to be awful. In most cases. There's no such thing as a "nice, cheap beginners cello." It takes masters of the instrument to make those things sound presentable. However, if you're willing to invest $3000 (

) and a long time searching for the right cello, and then put serious hard work in for the first year or two, well, now we're talking. Of course, different people would have different opinions. I switched from violin at a young age, and it probably took me three or four years and several thousand dollars to reach a level were I felt comfortable performing at, say, church. Is it worth it? Oh, definitely. The Irish flute seems to be more of a melodic, solo instrument - from there is the real joy attained. But the cello has the perks of a string quartet or a full orchestra. Where you have the power to express in a group. I play solo, quartet, and full orchestra, and right now, full orchestra's my favorite.

Sorry - you start me talking about cello, and you have to manually stop me. Too many tangents.

You have the perk of being "middle-aged." I think a lot of time is wasted on young musicians. Not that they don't learn or shouldn't start young, but there are so many impediments like the required coordination and "slower" minds. They develop bad habbits that are hard to fix. Of course, adults are just as capable of that, but they also have the mental capacity to keep more things in mind at one time. Starting young has its definite perks, but it's just as good to "start old," in my opinion. The next person will tell you the opposite, I'm sure.

Anyway, is it worth it? I'd say of course. Invest the money, take the lessons, practice hard. Everyone who hears you well tell you, "You know, I've always loved the sound of a cello . . ." and that is worth everything. And the fact that some of the most gorgeous music in the world was written for the cello . . .

I don't feel like I'm being coherent here, and that's because each individual has a different response to the cello. Some people take to it naturally, and acheive real proficiency easily. Others are never able to play a stringed instrument. It's a challenge, but one well worth it. Anyway, if you have specific questions, that would help me clarify everything.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 10:57 am

The way to go, I think it's widely accepted, is to
buy a non-keyed flute, as good a one as you can
afford, and play it. This isn't an easy instrument,
and you can expect some months of struggle
with the embouchure, but it's immensely
satisfying and, if it's at all meant for you,
the hard part isn't practicing but putting it
down to do something else. The second
octave is reasonably easy to reach.

Good luck--there's a wealth of info searchable
on this board, and please ask questions.
I'm greatly relieved that Jessie says
one is competent in 1 to 2 years.
I've been at it for 1. Best

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 11:15 am

OK - someone needs to come right out and just let you know how hard the first few days with the flute can be!

The biggest issue is getting the embouchure right. It's hard to describe - kind of like blowing across a coke bottle to get a tone...only harder. Years ago (23 or so) I rented a Bohm flute from a local shop, spent about two days blowing so often and hard that I was perpetually dizzy, and gave up...don't do that.

The next time I tried, as an adult, was with a simple system (i.e. - Irish or folk) fife in D. I still got dizzy, but I was able to get sounds periodically. After about a week of trying, I was consistently able to get a good sound - not by any means great, but serviceable, so the key is sticking with it.

A local teacher would be great, but not essential. James over at www.flutesite.com has some great pages on holding and playing the flute. The book by Grey Larson sounds good (too new for me to have seen it), but Fintal Vallely has a nice simple book (Timber - the Flute Tutor) that's a lot cheaper and easily orderable from online music stores.

AND, the flute is exceptionally expressive - much more so than any of my past instruments (this is purely my opinion - I've also played mandolin, guitar, whistle, and saxophone). Unlike most winds where the sound is seriously controlled by the reed or fipple (that's a whistle head by the way, chiff is a sound many folks ascribe to whistles but can't describe well!), your embouchure on the flute can allow for huge changes in tone from your flute. Also, the feel of your flute physically pulsing beneath your fingers when you're really into a tune, feeling the air flow coming through the tone holes, well, it's almost primal in its allure...

Eric, avowed flute junkie

fancypiper · Post by **fancypiper** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:16 pm

M and E Irish Flutes are reasonable and make a good weapon in a bar fight as well.

When you can play 2 tunes two times through on your flute without falling down, you are doing pretty good.

Flute + new player = hyperventilation

Octave changes are done by changing the blow angle slightly (I pull my chin in slightly), plus tightening your embouchure and increasing air pressure slightly.

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:42 pm

(I know, I shouldn't be playing with the computer on Christmas.)

I think you're coming at this from the best possible angle (or, from one of the best angles): a fretless string instrument. I think one of the major impediments to good flute playing is that it's difficult to learn to play in tune. Good flutes, even excellent flutes, require a little bit of embouchure adjustment to play in tune across two octaves. Bad flutes need even MORE adjustment. But your ear is probably quite accustomed to the infinite temperament of strings, and you'll be able to bring the flute well into tune with itself once you learn the embouchure.

Casey Burns's beginner flute has had a lot of press lately, but I have no experience with it. I'm a fan of Olwell bamboos for beginners myself, and also of Fred Rose flutes. Just two more names to throw in there.

Stuart