OT: Christianity "and" or "versus" Socia

elendil · Post by **elendil** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:48 pm

OK, in response to popular demand I've agreed to curtail all whistle related posts and confine my on board activities for the time being to strictly OT stuff (if you catch my drift -- and, sorry, Brewerpaul, I'll have to tell everyone about that dandy whistle you sent me a little later).

So, this afternoon I was on another OT thread and seemingly out of the blue Stoner wrote:

Christianity and socialism go well together.

Well, I thought that was one of his famous typos--that he really meant to write:

Pseudo-Christianity and socialism go well together.

Buuut....when I suggested that possibility, Stoner and Lorenzo (aka Grasshoppa), like, totally ganged up on me (sniffle...there's no emoticon for that).

So here's my question: what does everybody think of that proposition--is it "and" or "versus"?

To try to get this thing off the ground I'll just remind everyone of Jesus' saying that the poor you always have with you, and Paul's dictum that whoever doesn't work shouldn't eat--patently anti-Socialist stuff (if you catch my drift, once again). Yeah, yeah, I know there's all that stuff (drift?) about loving neighbors and even Samaritans, but I'm not gonna do the heavy lifting for the opposition--Lorenzo (aka Grasshoppa) will dig up that stuff (

) from his Magical Mystery Scriptures, and Stoner can slam me with the revelation that there are Christian Socialist parties in Europe.

Now, I don't want to keep typing here, and I'm really more interested in other peoples' opinions on this (no, really!), however, as a bonus for those of you who have come this far I've got a link to a totally unrelated article by one of my favorite e-journalists:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3 ... 13&id=3839
Yeah, you can tell from the ".co.uk" he's one of those pinko Euro guys.

Ciao--for now.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:54 pm

elendil wrote:... Lorenzo (aka Grasshoppa)... .

Love it!

(Now I'll go back and read the rest of your post.)

Best wishes,
Jerry

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:54 pm

elendil wrote:So here's my question: what does everybody think of that proposition--is it "and" or "versus"?

Neither.

elendil · Post by **elendil** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:59 pm

Oh, stuff, you guys are spoiling what I hoped was gonna be a great thread!

Jerry's being fair:

(Now I'll go back and read the rest of your post.)

and Walden's being judicious:

Neither.

and, even worse, coy.

Jerry Freeman · Post by **Jerry Freeman** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 7:02 pm

I would say, "can," which you haven't offered as a choice. It would depend on what brand of socialism one is talking about, and it would depend on how you choose to interpret various scriptural passages. I don't see any reason to interpret the two passages you referenced as proscribing socialism.

As usual, I feel very strongly both ways.

Best wishes,
Jerry

StewySmoot · Post by **StewySmoot** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 7:08 pm

The answer is AND...

Who you gonna believe, Jesus or Paul? If there wasnt no Jesus, there would be no Paul!

N'est pas?

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 7:13 pm

Jerry Freeman wrote:
elendil wrote:... Lorenzo (aka Grasshoppa)... .
Love it!

(Now I'll go back and read the rest of your post.)

("Don't Drag Me Down"by Social Distortion,
I'll read ye the bar codes manual of discipline)

Monster · Post by **Monster** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 7:20 pm

My whistles are dirty, think itls time to go wash em.

Celtoid · Post by **Celtoid** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:33 pm

To find the real Jesus you have to get past Paul and subtract his hellenizing influence on what was originally a Jewish reform movement within Judaism. Had not Paul come along and invented Christianity as some Hellenistic/Judaic hybrid and spread all over the place we might never have heard of this Yeshuah ben Joseph character who was nailed up by the Romans with the encouragement of their Sadducee stooges.

As to the actual saying of Jesus, he sounded very much like Rabbi Hillel who had been a popular Jewish Pharisaic teacher some time previous to Jesus. Hillel and Jesus both taught the "golden rule". I think that Jesus (Joshuah/Yeshuah...no one called him "Jesus" as that is a Greek rendition) would have been sympathetic to the ideas of social fairness implied in the non-utopian versions of Socialism. I don't think that he would have been a foaming-at-the-mouth revolutionary. His notion was more that the fairness that did not exist here would be made up for in heaven, not that you could go out and dispossess rich people of their life's gains.

elendil · Post by **elendil** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:01 pm

Someone calling himself Celtoid wrote:

To find the real Jesus you have to get past Paul and subtract his hellenizing influence on what was originally a Jewish reform movement within Judaism. Had not Paul come along and invented Christianity as some Hellenistic/Judaic hybrid and spread all over the place we might never have heard of this Yeshuah ben Joseph character who was nailed up by the Romans with the encouragement of their Sadducee stooges.

Celtoid, Celtiod...Hah! You don't fool me for a moment! J'accuse! Lorenzo put you up to this, didn't he? Lorenzo and Magical Mystery Scriptures are behind this--it's a conspiracy to hijack my thread with this Paul the Maniac Hellenizer jive. Well, I won't stand for it -- do you hear me out there Lorenzo aka Grasshoppa? I won't stand for it! You and your evil minions can't get away with this!!

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:03 pm

elendil wrote:Someone calling himself Celtoid wrote:
To find the real Jesus you have to get past Paul and subtract his hellenizing influence on what was originally a Jewish reform movement within Judaism. Had not Paul come along and invented Christianity as some Hellenistic/Judaic hybrid and spread all over the place we might never have heard of this Yeshuah ben Joseph character who was nailed up by the Romans with the encouragement of their Sadducee stooges.
Celtoid, Celtiod...Hah! You don't fool me for a moment! J'accuse! Lorenzo put you up to this, didn't he? Lorenzo and Magical Mystery Scriptures are behind this--it's a conspiracy to hijack my thread with this Paul the Maniac Hellenizer jive. Well, I won't stand for it -- do you hear me out there Lorenzo aka Grasshoppa? I won't stand for it! You and your evil minions can't get away with this!!

Hah! There'd be no Lorenzo, if Celtoid hadn't come along and skepticized a conspiracy theory reform movement!

StewySmoot · Post by **StewySmoot** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:05 pm

Celtoid wrote:To find the real Jesus you have to get past Paul and subtract his hellenizing influence on what was originally a Jewish reform movement within Judaism. Had not Paul come along and invented Christianity as some Hellenistic/Judaic hybrid and spread all over the place we might never have heard of this Yeshuah ben Joseph character who was nailed up by the Romans with the encouragement of their Sadducee stooges.

As to the actual saying of Jesus, he sounded very much like Rabbi Hillel who had been a popular Jewish Pharisaic teacher some time previous to Jesus. Hillel and Jesus both taught the "golden rule". I think that Jesus (Joshuah/Yeshuah...no one called him "Jesus" as that is a Greek rendition) would have been sympathetic to the ideas of social fairness implied in the non-utopian versions of Socialism. I don't think that he would have been a foaming-at-the-mouth revolutionary. His notion was more that the fairness that did not exist here would be made up for in heaven, not that you could go out and dispossess rich people of their life's gains.

Did he say "Blessed are the Cheese-makers"??

emmline · Post by **emmline** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:33 pm

Most of what happened and was recorded/incorporated post-Jesus, ie, from Paul on...are overlays on what I think would have been a pretty simple, yet profound message. My issue with religion (I'm an uncomfortable Presbyterian,) is its insistence on promoting the overlays to primary positions.
If we take "Christianity" to mean the philosophy of the guy Jesus, then it is neither pro nor versus Socialism...or any other political theory. It is a personal understanding of one's relationship with God/the Universe, and whatever personal code such understanding causes one to live by. Once you assign a political or social system to "Christianity" you are, (like everyone before you for the past 2000 years,) loading it with new rules which make a rigid framework Jesus (imho) never meant his philosophy to carry.

elendil · Post by **elendil** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:45 pm

I think I'm starting to feel suicidal. Is there a shrink in the house? Where's Dale?

(that's the closest I could come to an emoticon for hysterical laughter)

Celtoid · Post by **Celtoid** » Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:36 pm

I AM the Lorenzo. How did you know?

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