Reel Speed

[Tyghress]

Personally, I know of enough people who learn 'by ear' and are horrid at it. They're bad musicians as well as overly proud of their lack of reading. On the other hand, a good musican CAN take a tune that they've never heard, see it on paper, and know what to do with it to make it music, not just notes.

Personally, I'm pretty wretched at both, but I will be fried in oil before I give up trying, or enjoying, or participating,...

[burnsbyrne]

Bloomie,
Yeah, I was being a bit sarcastic there and you identified it right off. What I think I'm trying to say is this: If Player x sits in his closed room with a whistle and a stack of tinwhistle tutors for several months or years. No listening to CDs or interaction with other players. There is no doubt in my mind that x will not be able to play anything recognizable as IrTrad.
However, a judicious use of sheet music along with a live teacher, listening to the music and getting together with other players is not bad. Some board members refer to sheet music as a contagion, a spawn of the devil that damages all who use it (hyperbole alert!). I'm just saying that it's a useful tool among useful tools like the CD player, the metronome and Amazing Slow Downer and nothing more. On the practical side for me, it makes it so I don't have to call my teacher and ask him to play this week's tune over the phone because my >50 yr old brain can't remember the B part.
Mike

[Azalin]

Are you sure that some of the good players in the session didn't "learn from sheet music"? And while we're at it, exactly how much does one have to learn by sheetmusic in order to really suck? One tune? Twenty tunes? Can you just flirt with sheet music and still come out OK? And are you sure that the boring and annoying sheet music learner wouldn't be boring and annoying if he had learned by ear?

I think you've got a point here, different people can be annoying in a session, and many of them learn by ear. Maybe I'm one of them, who knows To be more specific, I would say that someone who has *only* learned from sheet music and doesnt at least listen to lotsa recorded irish music will sound like elevator music, but if you combine the two and are "music smart" enough you might come out a very good player.

Does that make some sens? You know, I don't want to play the "irish music police" here, as believe me, people would find me annoying in many sessions, especially top notch musicians who will think that I suck big time, I just think I have a problem addressing the "sheet music" issue clearly

[burnsbyrne]

Are you sure that some of the good players in the session didn't "learn from sheet music"? And while we're at it, exactly how much does one have to learn by sheetmusic in order to really suck? One tune? Twenty tunes? Can you just flirt with sheet music and still come out OK? And are you sure that the boring and annoying sheet music learner wouldn't be boring and annoying if he had learned by ear?

I think you've got a point here, different people can be annoying in a session, and many of them learn by ear. Maybe I'm one of them, who knows To be more specific, I would say that someone who has *only* learned from sheet music and doesnt at least listen to lotsa recorded irish music will sound like elevator music, but if you combine the two and are "music smart" enough you might come out a very good player.

Does that make some sens? You know, I don't want to play the "irish music police" here, as believe me, people would find me annoying in many sessions, especially top notch musicians who will think that I suck big time, I just think I have a problem addressing the "sheet music" issue clearly

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. IrTrad doesn't have a monopoly on the issue. People in Flamenco (where I was for many years) have these same discussions about the dots vs. the ears. You can do without the dots but not without the ears. But the dots don't automatically disqualify you from being a good Trad player.
Mike

[Caj]

The reason one shouldn't use sheet music in Irtrad is simply that nobody has to, and there are enormous benefits to learning without it. It's not really a matter of traditionalism, or of sheet music having some intangible power to corrupt the spirit or such like. Pedagogically, doing without sheet music just makes sense, no hard feelings etc.
Caj

Did you ever play in a session with someone who has learned from sheet music?

Yes, of course. I know and have played with people who avoid sheet music, and people who occasionally use it to pick up tunes.

Do you know how boring or annoying it can be? Forget about good session chemistry with sheet-music-learners around.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Respectfully, I have never observed any difference in chemistry in the real people I have played with in real life. In fact, I really can't tell if someone has learned exclusively by ear or not, and only find out when the subject comes up in conversation.

Of course, just about everyone agrees that it's good for you to go without sheet music; but it's a wacky exaggeration to say that people who have used it suck in some detectable way, or that it puts some magical psychic scar on your musical aura or whatnot. Being good is simply a matter of practice and instruction, both of playing and listening skills; and there is no magic pixie dust that will make us better or curse us forever.

Also, I think that once you get used to learning from sheet music, it's very, very hard to start listening by ear.

Well, it wasn't for me. I learned my first 40 or so tunes from sheet music, then switched to learning by ear. I had no trouble adapting; I just practiced until I could do it.

What terrible hurdles was I supposed to encounter?

Caj

[Caj]

Does that make some sens? You know, I don't want to play the "irish music police" here, as believe me, people would find me annoying in many sessions, especially top notch musicians who will think that I suck big time, I just think I have a problem addressing the "sheet music" issue clearly

In my limited experience, the only people who really play "music police" are people who themselves are just getting into the tradition. I never met a teacher who went nuts over the evils of sheet music, just fellow students.

I have taken lessons from people who just said "no" to written tunes, but this was for simple pedagogical reasons (like, "I don't have written music," or "c'mon, learning by ear is good for you.") Never have I seen an honest-to-God visceral revulsion to sheet music, just the mundane and perfectly logical attitude that the stuff is an unnecessary aid, like a pocket calculator or a pair of water wings.

Caj

[Azalin]

In my limited experience, the only people who really play "music police" are people who themselves are just getting into the tradition.

Good point there, I am just getting in the music. Hopefully my distaste of sheet music will diminish with time.

[MarkB]

As a librarian for twenty years and ITrad player for the last twelve years my observation of the above discussion comes from answering reference questions.

In the city I live in we have a small symphony orchrestra, two professional choirs, a light opera theatre group, several dance companies, and five live theatre groups and ton of musicians in all genres imaginable, they all come into the library to get both a sound recording and the score/sheet music.

Symphonic musicians as we know can read the dots, but they still want to listen to a recording of what they are going to play, same for all the above.
Our library system moves a ton of recordings, scores and sheet music every year, not including a controlled cabinet with six rows of fake books!

I'm not advocating which is the best way to learn, I use what ever I have at hand to learn a tune. I will never play like Mary Bergin et al but commerical CD's let me hear tunes I might not have heard any other way; not in the sessions I play in or with groups that I play with. I have a good ear but most times miss something in the listening and then I use the dots to get what I miss.

I did do Irish dancing, step, set, and ceili for years (plus Highland dancing and ballroom) and that has helped me lot in getting the swing of the tune when I'm playing, I mentally dance the tune in my head. Now I play for dancers but still take my innotation from watching them dance.

There are many ways to learn something a lot of my friends on this board don't have the opportunity that I have here in this city to learn or play tunes but yet they're in there like the rest of us with heart and soul learning and playing tunes.

The two whistle gatherings that I have organized here in Windsor have taught me that but the fact that we were able learn something in isolation that is familiar to each of us, then come together to play them is just beautiful.

My two cents (CDN)

MarkB

[Jens_Hoppe]

This is the best example of what I like to get from this forum. These discussions are serious and helpful in understanding the music.

Even if it's a discussion we've had a dozen times or more already.

[Wombat]

This is the best example of what I like to get from this forum. These discussions are serious and helpful in understanding the music.

Even if it's a discussion we've had a dozen times or more already.

The people who post are pretty much the same; the people who read them probably aren't.

[Mongoose of Righteousness]

I've played in sessions with a guy fiddler who couldn't read a note, who played next to a gal fiddler who has two music degrees and oodles of orchestra experience.
The big difference came when we decided to learn new repertoire. While his learning by ear was amazing, it was awfully slow compared to reading from a page.

The gal with degrees picks up stuff by ear too, though not as quickly.

Our non-reading friend admitted he'd love to be able, and suggested that many of those who only learn by ear are a little jealous of those who read music.

[Nanohedron]

I must be getting a reputation in my own community. At last night's session, there's a whistler that's been sitting in now and then with his sheet music and making a bit of a hash of session etiquette and starting tunes badly. As soon as he saw me he took the sheet music off of the table and put it on the chair next to him, apparently hoping I wouldn't notice!

I am so bad.

[Mongoose of Righteousness]

I'm with you on that one Nano. It's bad form to bring sheet music to a session where it's not generally done.

[feadogin]

The local session is a restricted group of tunes rushed through as fast as possible with the worst acoustics and bar noise you could imagine. No inspiration, whatsoever. Then, there are the vast, teeming masses of beginners.

Hey, I agree, that session is WAY TOO big.
The regulars are not too friendly, too, probably because they don't want anyone else to start playing when there's already 20 players.

Someone needs to start another east bay session (not me).

J.

[Nanohedron]

I'm with you on that one Nano. It's bad form to bring sheet music to a session where it's not generally done.

What especially floors me is that the real authorities worthy of respect were already there ahead of me. I'm just an arriviste by comparison.

Everybody's just about fit to kill him. He KNOWS the general drill, just seems to think it doesn't apply to him for some reason. We're trying to be nice and, hoping he'll "get it", do him the courtesy of accommodating him as he is a "beginner", but there doesn't seem to be any more point to it. Previously he left in a huff because there wasn't any point to his staying if people weren't playing tunes that he knew; I actually put my finger to his chest and said,"Hey, hey, there, now...listening is practice, too, you know!"...to which he replied, "That's b*llsh*t. I'm outta here." Too bad it wasn't for good. The main piper is convinced that "the poor fellow's got to be on meds of some kind". As for reel speed, he would have to have a recognizable rhythm first to address the issue. Sorry; I just had to get back on topic, there, if momentarily. Curse you and your rectitude, Herbivore12!

He may already have become the stuff of legend and cautionary example for us: already we have "verbed" his name in description of certain flawed results or behaviors, as in: "Well, I really [Name]ed that one."

So, once we've booted his sorry, self-entitled oaf butt for good, he'll be immortalized anyway.