OT: Protest against the slaughter of dolphins in Japan

Tak_the_whistler · Post by **Tak_the_whistler** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:22 am

I remember watching a TV show back few years ago, chiefly based on discussion (and stabbing) on worldly issues. The day's topic happened to be on "killing of whales". About a dozen of people from around the world, East to the West, were invited to the programme, including both who are for and against whale "mutilation". As time went by the argument heated up, with couple of fishers and meat cravers left refuted, and all of sudden, dishes were served --- pieces from a "murdered" whale. Guess what the the people, who were supposed to be against whale-torturing, did. They gathered around the "flavoured corpse" like, uh, civilised monkeys.
I hope those were actors/actresses, having been paid to say and do what the producers wanted them to.

mat · Post by **mat** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:54 am

Cranberry wrote:It's more than possible. When we stop breeding animals for food and clothes, the amount of land used soley as livestock-grain growing areas can be used to grow food for PEOPLE. One person can exist on much less wheat/corn/rye/oats than a cow, sheep, or pig.

Erik, I don't know why I like you so much. You're not wrong, you're just....not well informed.

It would be an ecological disaster if the planet were to go vegetarian. Not only would most of the surface area have to be turned over to intensive agriculture but also many extremely precious semi-natural habitats that have developed over centuries as a result of animal husbandry(moorland and meadows)/hunting (forests in Europe for instance) would be lost. The planetary ecosystem is a fine ballance, such a siesmic shift in eating (therefor farming) patterns would have massive implications.

I personally dont have a problem with eating meat as a principal but I do think that farming methods could be much more humane. I have absolutely no problem eating (sustainable) wild meat.

Yours with respect,
Mat (ex: vegan/hunt saboteur/anti-road tree dwelling protestor)

trisha · Post by **trisha** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:03 am

Bloomfield wrote:
trisha wrote: Evolution can't help you out on this argument, either. The bowel of a carnivore is straight and that of a human is curved and puckered. Meat will leave a carnivore's body quickly, it takes longer for a human to pass it. Does colon cancer ring a bell?

No, I didn't

Trisha

aderyn_du · Post by **aderyn_du** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:30 am

Cranberry wrote:Quote @ aderyn_du
I don't quite know how to take that one, Cran.
I'll take you with ketchup and salt. As long as I kill you "humanely" it's ok.

Hurry! I'm hungry.

Cran, I don't know how you inferred the "as long as you kill humanely, it's okay" from my post-- I was merely responding to your, in my opinion, erroneous statement that plants don't feel pain. My ending words were "That's why it's best to treat everything you eat (or don't eat) with respect and honor."

If you choose not to eat meat, for whatever reasons, that is your choice and it's great. I think it's wonderful that you have strong opinions on things and are not afraid to use your voice. I eat very little meat, but I do eat some... and that is my choice. I choose this because my body does not feel good on a completely vegetarian diet-- I've tried many times. I admire those that are able to do it, and I admire those who say it isn't for them. Frankly, as someone who has struggled with anorexia in the past, and from time to time still has to be very conscious of feeling okay with eating, I'm very grateful for each time that I put food in my body now... period. And that was my overall point before, be thankful and honor any food you choose to eat, whether it be plant, animal, or Doritos.

Best to you,
Andrea

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:34 am

. Not only would most of the surface area have to be turned over to intensive agriculture but also many extremely precious semi-natural habitats that have developed over centuries as a result of animal husbandry(moorland and meadows)/hunting (forests in Europe for instance) would be lost. The planetary ecosystem is a fine ballance, such a siesmic shift in eating (therefor farming) patterns would have massive implications.

I dare you to go and see what the present form of intensive cattle production is doing to the landscape as it has evolved during times when sheep were grazing the mountains. All around Ireland [to take the example close at hand] you can find trampled overgrazed mountainsides where the variations in vegetation is diminished by the use of fertiliser so that cattle will have enough grass to feed on. The present system of farming isn't exactly beneficial to the natural environment.

claudine · Post by **claudine** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:01 am

When I read the dolphin story on a news-website last night, I was very shocked. As I often write letters for Amnesty International, I thought this might be useful in this affair as well. But it was not my intention to start a new flame war. I didn't want to preach about humans being herbivores or carnivores. However I want to join in a nonviolent protest against the cruel and senseless massmurder of dolphins and/or whales. They are mammals like us, they are intelligent and they probably suffer like we would in a similar situation.

aderyn_du · Post by **aderyn_du** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:13 am

I'm very glad you did post about it, Claudine! The sea red with blood was shocking, and I agree that voices need to be heard on the subject. My children and I will be writing our letter today... thanks for putting the post out there, as it was done in good heart.

Best,
Andrea

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:21 am

I know this is a bit late, but I think it is interesting to note that fossiles of carniverous ungulates have been found on occasion. Using a species' ancestors or relatives as a guide for "what they should eat" is pretty silly as natural selection can change diet relatively quickly. Baleen whales, for example, evolved from a cow-like species as well, and yet they eat krill, which are by no means a vegetable.

As far as human teeth go--they're not really good for anything in particular. Most herbivores have much much better grinding surfaces and most carnivores have much much better tearing/slicing teeth than we do. And I guarantee you if you ate a monkey's diet with all that fruit, you'd have the runs by the end of the week and eventually diabetes from all that sugar. The fact of the matter is that humans are not physically well adapted for anything in particular save tool-making (gotta love opposable thumbs), which is what distinguishes us from the rest of the planet. We're biological chameleons: we can worm our way into pretty much any situation. All of our adaptations are mental, neural. We're problem-solvers and that's about *all* you can say about humanity in regards to biology.

RonKiley · Post by **RonKiley** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:42 am

I find an interesting contradiction when someone is so strongly against the killing of animals and supports/advocates abortion. A dolphin's life is sacred but an unborn human baby is expendable at the mother's whim. You can't morally have it both ways.

Ron

cj · Post by cj » Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:46 am

I normally don't take a stand on these issues, but like Andrea, I need a certain amount of protein to feel up to snuff and know a couple of former vegetarians who came to the same conclusion. We females also need calcium to keep bone density, and yes, you can get it from broccoli, but you have to eat an enormous amount to get the same amount you get from, say, eating some cheese. Strict vegetarians sometimes have to worry about iron, B12, and other deficiencies.

I respect vegans/vegetarians for their convictions yet don't see things the same way. I come from a line of poor folks who kept a couple of pigs and cows around and had to kill them to survive and who hunt deer, also to eat and yes, partly for sport. I think some of the Native Americans might have the right idea about respecting the slain animal's spirit and being responsible for what God gave us, whether plants or animals.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:15 am

Yes, Sam, our chief evolutionary feature is our flexibility.

As mentioned millions of people live quite healthily
without eating meat--maybe there are a few who
can't, but the vast mass of humanity is better
off without it. There are perhaps zany 'vegetarian'
diets which are bad for people, but I was talking
sensible. In the north of India the only animal
products consumed by vegetarinas are milk, curd, and white cheese--
millions are living very well that way, doing
physical labor, etc. Here most people would
count themselves as vegetarians who
include eggs--not acceptable in India. My chief problem as a vegetarian
remains keeping my weight down. There are
ample sources of vegetable protein.
Maybe some people feel a need to hunt, or
find great meaning in it--but the great mass
of humanity doesn't. (In my own case I confess
I turn furry when the moon is full and my wife
locks me in the basement, but it passes in
a day or so.) For the vast majority of people
reading this thread, I think the argument for vegetarianism, above,
from prudence and kindness
has real force.

Emphatically this isn't meant to be an all or nothing
matter. It isn't a food taboo. Buddhist monks eat what
they are given, what's put in their begging bowl.
If it's meat they eat it. The only restriction for monastics is that
you cannot eat the meat of an animal that was
slaughtered for your sake. Even if we're unwilling
to be vegetarians we can (on grounds of kindness
and prudence) minimize meat eating. If we
find great meaning in hunting, we can minimize
eating the meat of animals we don't hunt.

America isn't so well set up for vegetarianism yet,
though it's coming. Burger King now has a tasty
vegetable burger for 1.99. If I'm travelling or whatever
and there's some reasonable vegetarian food
I eat it; if there isn't I eat meat. I eat turkey
at grandmas for Thanksgiving (for heaven's sake)!
I virtually never eat pigs, because I know they
feel about being slaughtered about the way
I would.
For virtually all ordinary folks, I think this
strategy just makes sense--you're likely to live a longer
and more healthy life and cause less pain.

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:24 am

Jim, I wasn't even drawing ethics into my argument, I was merely discussing the "are we evolved for plants or animals" thing. Ethics is a whole other ball game and is completely unrelated to the biology question. I merely posted what I did because somebody brought it up. I'm not even going to start on the "is it good or evil to eat meat" thing. Not touching that with a 10 foot pole...

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:33 am

Calcium, from the Society of British Vegetarians. This
is generally confirmed by non-vegetarian scientific sources.

Sources of Calcium (single servings)

Tofu (60g or 2oz) 304 mg Brown bread (2 slices) 70 mg Spaghetti, boiled (100g or 3½oz) 7 mg
Cheddar cheese (slice, 40g) 288 mg Brazil nuts (9 nuts, 30g) 54 mg Brown rice (190g or 8oz) 7 mg
Cows milk (0.3 pint) 234 mg Dried apricots (8 apricots) 46 mg - -
Spinach, boiled (130g or 5oz) 208 mg French beans, boiled (100g) 41 mg - -
Dried figs (4 figs) 168 mg Cottage cheese (45g or 1½oz) 33 mg - -
Soya cheese (slice, 40g) 180 mg Sesame seeds (15g or ½oz) 20 mg - -
Chick peas, boiled (200g or 8oz) 92 mg - - - -
Baked beans (200g or 8 oz) 90 mg - - - -
Broccoli, boiled (95g or 3½oz) 72 mg - - - -

Required Intakes
The old Recommended Daily Amounts (RDAs) have now been replaced by the term Reference Nutrient Intake (RNI). The RNI is the amount of nutrient which is enough for at least 97% of the population.

Reference nutrient intakes for calcium, mg/day.
Age RNI . Age RNI
0 to 12 months 525 mg . 11 to 18 years, male 1000 mg
1 to 3 years 350 mg . 11 to 18 years, female 800 mg
4 to 6 years 450 mg . 19 + years 700 mg
7 to 10 years 550 mg . Breast feeding women 1250 mg

emmline · Post by **emmline** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:41 am

Thank you, Sam, for you "biological chameleons" comment. It seems evident to me that the human advantage is the ability to make what we need out of what's available to us...which leaves each of us with many choices regarding how lightly (or not) we wish to tread upon the cosmos and its other inhabitants.
I find myself most in agreement with Jim Stone's analysis of the "why" for a primarily herbivorous diet.

I have spent time in the more vehement pro-veg camp, and find I can't live there because I'm far too understanding of the many shades of gray that affect people's stances.

Thoughtless and unneeded brutality of any kind, whether it be in the meat industry, war industry, or in the realm of personal behavior is one of the worst traits we, as a species, need to outgrow.

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:43 am

Sources of protein for a vegetarian diet--I believe this is
essentially correct.

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A person who consumes a vegetarian diet is considered to be at lower risk for several diseases including many types of cancer and heart disease. One reason for this is that a diet high in fruits, vegetables, and legumes tends to replace fattier foods in one's diet. However, many vegetarians often do not eat enough of certain important nutritional components such as protein.

There are several types of vegetarian diets. Vegan is the most restrictive form and includes only foods of plant origin. Lactovegetarians eat fruits, vegetables, legumes, and milk products. These two types of vegetarian diets tend to offer the greatest risk of not getting enough protein. Lacto-ovo vegetarians, on the other hand, include in their diets eggs, which not only provide an adequate source of protein but also are good sources of Vitamin B6 and Vitamin B12.

How does a person determine how much protein he or she needs? The most accurate way is to consult a registered dietitian or nutritionist who can provide specific answers to questions about recommended daily allowances for all minerals, vitamins, etc. as well as the best way's an individual can include each in his or her diet. However, there are a few simple foods that will help insure that vegetarians eat adequate protein.

By far, one of the best sources of vegetarian protein, are soy protein isolates which contain ninety percent of protein. In fact, the Food and Drug Administration has given these isolates a rating of one, meaning that this is a source of protein equal to that found in meats and certain dairy products. And, with the increasing number of vegetarians, soy protein isolates are now found in numerous foods including breads, pasta, cereals, soups, and more.

At one time, it was difficult to find vegetarian sources of protein, such as tofu, soymilk, and other soy-based products. Today, however, even the regular supermarket offers a fairly diverse selection of these foods. Not only that, but the taste and texture of many have improved dramatically. Some suggestions for including these foods into a diet are:

*stir-fry cubes of tofu and diced vegetables in a teriyaki or ginger sauce and serve over

rice

*instead of regular milk, pour soymilk over cereal (many cereals now feature soy flakes

as well)

*substitute veggie ground "meat" in pasta and rice mixes calling for hamburger or turkey

*visit a health food store or whole foods market to check out their selection of vegetarian

entrees

If trying tofu or other soy products isn't an option yet, protein can still be a part of a vegetarian diet through two to three servings daily of cooked dried peas and beans, nuts and seeds, or eggs. (Note: whole egg intake should be limited to two to four each week.). Furthermore, many nutritionists now agree that eating complementary proteins such as rice or pasta isn't necessary at each meal as long as vegetarians eat a variety of nutrient-packed foods daily.

In conclusion, eating a vegetarian diet doesn't have to involve complex recipes or other difficulties as long as an individual follows a few simple steps to eat adequate protein every day. In the long run, learning these steps will pave the way to greater health and less risk of contracting many diseases.